Jason Zygmont

00:00Welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio, a podcast for and about the people of the Nashville Restaurant scene. Now here's your host, the CEO of New Light Hospitality Solutions, Brandon Styll. Hello Music City and welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio. My name is Brandon Styll and I am your host and happy Monday to each and every one of you out there. What an amazing day to start the rest of your week. Hopefully you, if you're homeschooling or if you send your kids to school, whatever level of new normal your life is getting at, I hope that this week is finding you in a great place. We have Jason Zygmunt today on the show. He is the chef and owner at Setsun in the Van Dyke Bed and Beverage and in this interview he tells us his story. He talks about working at NOMO in Copenhagen, Denmark. He talks about working at Thomas Keller's per se in New York City. He talks about being the executive chef at 5 and 10 in Athens, Georgia with Hugh Acheson and what brought him to Nashville and the lessons he learned. He tells a bunch of stories along the way. This is a fun one. I'm glad that you've joined us today for this one. Let's jump in with a couple of spots I want to talk about. First one is the heat outside. It's hot and you know if you're out there right now, if you're thinking, man you know what, my air isn't working. It hasn't been working that great and I need to get it fixed.

01:52You need somebody to come out and check your air conditioning. Something's going on but you know what, you don't want to pay the 110 dollars or whatever it is to have somebody come out and check it. That's why Binkley HVAC is here to help. They know that sometimes you just need to add some coolant. They know that sometimes it's a bigger problem but when you're already strapped for cash, it's hard to pay somebody 100 bucks to come out to tell you it's just that. They don't charge that. They will come out today, check out your HVAC system, let you know what it is. If it's had coolant, they'll sell you some coolant. They won't charge that extra 100 bucks to come by and check it out. So give Josh Binkley a call. His number is 615-736-1012. Find them on Facebook at Binkley HVAC and he's a local guy, local to Nashville, lives in offices in Bellevue. So if you want to have somebody come check out your HVAC system and not charge you an arm and a leg because they recognize that we're in a crazy time right now, they will come by and get you straightened up. Give them a call. Also, we'll talk to you real quick about Springer Mountain Farms Chicken. Of course, you know, right now with this COVID-19 happening, everything out there is just, it's crazy. So we've given updates. I want to give you kind of their update as to what they're doing. We want to make sure that the supply chain is nice and safe. So as a food manufacturing company, it's vital that we continue to provide a healthy and reliable food source. We have taken precautions against COVID-19 to protect the health and wellbeing of our employees, allowing us to continue to operate on a normal schedule.

03:36In addition, they've now increased production levels up to help with the overwhelming and increased demand at grocery stores and restaurants. We appreciate your confidence and support as they work through to navigate this difficult time. You know, everybody has to do stuff. They're proactively figuring this thing out. They want to make sure that everybody's, as things come to a new normal here, be rest assured, Springer Mountain Farms Chicken is doing all the things that they need to do and to keep you safe and your guests safe. Well, speaking of safety, let's talk real quick about Trust20. Trust20 is an independent auditor. They will come out and make sure that you are doing the 20 things that you need to be doing in order to keep your restaurant and your guests and your employees safe. Guys, this is a free service. Through the end of August, this is a free service. So check them out at Trust20.co and we will have a short break in the middle of this podcast to learn a little bit more about them. So we're going to jump right in here. We have got Jason Zygmunt and this is one of my favorite interviews that we've done. I had so much fun just talking to him. We just got talking forever. So hope you enjoy it. We'll see you after. All right. So we are joined now with Jason Zygmunt, who is the executive chef at Setsun in the Van Dyke Bed and Beverage in East Nashville, right off Five Points. Welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio, Jason.

05:14Thanks for having me, Brandon. Excited to be on. So I think I'll start with the question. Are you a listener of the show? I haven't listened to all of them, but I've listened to a select few of friends that have been on. So yeah. Okay. So you know that I'm asking the question, how are you? And not just, hey, how are you? How are you like? Yeah. How are you doing right now? How's your psyche? How's your mental health? I'm pretty fortunate considering the times right now. You know, all in all, I'm doing okay. I have an amazing girlfriend who has remained gainfully employed through all this. And, you know, I've said this on a couple various forums, but in the world of restaurant owners, I'm pretty fortunate because Setsun was relatively low cost to start up. I took out a very small loan for basically inventory and some equipment costs. But my, you know, I don't have a seven figure loan. I don't have a 10 year lease that I'm tied to at the moment. It's pretty, you know, we're pretty fly by to keep our pants, which can be difficult in one way. But in the current situation where no one knows what's going to happen in a couple months, you know, if I had to shut down, like if the worst came to worse, I'm not, you know, on the hook for a personal guarantee for millions of dollars at the moment. Before all this happened, I almost signed a giant lease and did all that stuff. So in the grand scheme of being a restaurant owner, I'm hanging in there and doing pretty good.

06:55That's fantastic. So I also did introduce you as the executive chef. You are the executive. Are you the executive chef as well as, I mean, you're the owner, but are you also the executive chef? Chef, owner, yeah, executive chef, the phrase I use. I steal it from the Michael Keaton line in the movie Spotlight. I like to think of myself more as a player coach where I'm, you know, on the field, you know, the, you know, Setsun in its original form 1.0, as we call it in the restaurant when we were at Sky Blue, you know, I did, I cooked everything I did, HR, I did all the PR, you know, I ran social media, I did all the accounting, like literally anything that could be done, I did it. The only thing that I didn't do was our taxes because I didn't want to have to deal with the IRS and getting audited. So, you know, it was literally like, I did everything. I had a front of house staff that, you know, came in and ran service. And then I had one other guy in the kitchen with me. His name is Ray Melendi. He doesn't live in Nashville anymore, but he worked with me at Treehouse. And so basically it's like, I was involved on every single level.

08:07Now that we've moved over to Van Dyke, I've hired a couple more people in the kitchen. Luckily, you know, there are some really incredible people out there right now that were looking for work. So I brought on some guys in the kitchen that are like, thank you everyone I hired in the kitchen is like sous chef chef to cuisine level. And it allows me to kind of step out of necessarily running every day to day aspect. And I can focus on paperwork and you know, dish developments and things like that where, you know, I'm not necessarily there for every minute of service every night. And to be honest, that is something I never thought I would want to do. Like I'm a kitchen rat, like I'm a line rat. I just love cooking on the line more than anything in the world. And but I'm getting older. And you know, line cooking is definitely a young man's game. And so, you know, it's all it's interesting, but I'm very happy with where we are. But yeah, chef, owner, whatever. I always consider that like the Pete Rose player coach, you know, he played first base and is also the manager and you know, Charlie Hussle, right, you just constantly doing everything. And that's where I'm at right now with my stage of my work, this podcast with my company. I kind of do everything, you know, and it's, it's a lot. It's it's I find myself sleeping four hours a night, maybe and I'm up till two o'clock in the morning, I'm sending emails to people at 1230 at night. And I'm like, please don't reply. Like, I'm not trying to send this to you.

09:34Like, I need a response. This is just the first time that I've had a chance to write an email. Yeah, the first time I had to sit down and have a stream of conscious to go, okay, I'm going to send that out and just fire and stuff out to people. So I'm trying to cross this email off my list so that I don't have to wake up and think about it tomorrow. So I can go to sleep, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, something like this is like there's always a million tiny things to do. And, you know, if I didn't do it previously, it wasn't getting done. And now I'm in a fortunate position where, look, we're doing well enough, like, in the house at the restaurant with dining and takeout, like, you know, we're still 50% capacity, we're still following all the new guidelines and everything. But like, my goal was once we reopened was to break even. If we can just survive and hold on until down the line, hopefully things improve, you know, then we're going to be there and we'll be open. And we're doing that. So, you know, and I can keep my staff employed. And, you know, with, you know, unemployment, just having been knocked down significantly, like everyone that I've hired is like, super happy to have worked. And look, we're not as busy as we were, we just necessarily can't be. But, you know, all in all, we're doing okay, considering the circumstances, all I can ask for right now.

10:57Well, I had dinner there last night. And it was nothing short of amazing. The food was out of control. There was like, you know, four tables in the place, right? Now we went early, we're like, you know, early bird diners, because kids school night, you know, so we went out at like six. But the food was like, so top tier. I mean, just like you were, I felt like I was in New York eating. The food was just unbelievable. The flavor profiles of what you did, the presentation, the inside. And I want to get into this later. I want to get too much of it now. But I just was thinking the whole time, I'm like, does, does everybody in the city know that this is available right now? You could be eating here right now, even though it's Thursday night, but like, this place should be completely full. It's socially distanced out. You've got the whole thing set up. It's great. You said that you have some great, you have some great people in there. What is the thing that you look for when you hire somebody? Like, so I'm very particular when I hire people. I have a whole set of questions I ask. I have a, do you hire based upon experience? Do you hire based upon if they show up with a pen? Do you hire based upon appearance, attitude? What's the thing if you're going to work at Setsun that attracts you the most to a candidate?

12:16All of the above. But it's a, it's a, it's kind of a random collection of things. And, you know, my interviews, when I interview people to hire them, you know, it's not, I'm not doing like a Google interview. There's not, it's not like a four day process. It's just like, it's an initial feel that I get. Most of the people that come in for interviews are referrals or people that I know from other people that I've hired. So at the moment, my number two at the restaurant is a guy named Brad Webb. He moved to Nashville to open Optimist. And he actually left there and he was working for Rob over at Gray and Dudley. And then he came over when we reopened Setsun. And, you know, he and I, when we sat down, it was just like, oh, we're just kind of cut from the same cloth. We know we both came up as cooks in Atlanta. We know all the same people. And, you know, he has a really great attitude, self starter, which is important, just basically being willing to jump in and, like, assuming that responsibility and just doing the work, not having to be told what to do. That obviously comes with experience and knowing what needs to be done. But then, basically, he came in and, you know, I was stepping away because I'm trying to do a couple other, you know, business things outside of the restaurant. And I basically gave him a bit of carte blanche. I was like, all right, bring in the team or the people that you want to work with.

13:53And then I'll sit down with them. And if I get along with them, then great, because I'm just trying to get him a team where he can work and, you know, harmony with these people on a day-to-day basis so that we just don't have constant blow ups. But it's really, you know, good attitude is number one. I don't care if you have 20 years experience, if you're a jaded asshole, then I can't really work with you. I want you to be excited about the food we're doing and be malleable because we, you know, when I was working at, per se, New York, my first day there, they asked me if I've ever made something. And, you know, my response is, well, yeah, but I've never made that here. And they're like, that's the right answer because we do everything a little bit differently. So it's kind of what we do. In our kitchen, we do everything a little bit differently. So people that come in and can be malleable and don't think that they already know everything straight off the bat. But generally, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I'd rather hire, I know it's kind of a cliche, but I'd rather hire for attitude than experience. But I think some level of experience is necessary. I think it would be hard to train from the ground up, even though I've been there. But yeah, it's, you know. Do you find yourself in a position, because I know myself, I trust very quickly. I trust very quickly if you're somebody that impresses me on the front end, and I don't say that like in an arrogant kind of way, but when you're in a hiring position, you're trying to find somebody. I feel like I've, through my experience, I can pick up pretty quickly on whether or not you're the type of person I can work with really well. And I'm the kind of person that is very direct. I don't pull punches, but I don't have my feelings hurt. And I hope that you don't get your, but I'm not mean, I'm not like, I don't, there's no way I want to like call you names or anything. But for the greater good of taking care of the guest, we all have this goal. And I want you to be able to give me honest feedback. Like if you're somebody who I get and I trust, I immediately, I'm like, that's my guy. I give you carte blanche to do

15:55whatever you want to. And I almost like, once you earn my trust, you just got it. And getting a team full of those people is a lot of fun. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's so, it's so difficult because we, you know, when I took over a tree house, it was this like, I was there for almost four years and it was this process. And like about two years in, I got this team together. I was like, all right, like we have a team now. And like I can, I feel comfortable, you know, kind of like not micromanaging and watching every single thing that happens in this place. Like I trust that y'all are going to, whether it's like, you know, dicing an onion for the sauce, like where like, if it's too big, it's just not going to taste right. Where I was having to watch over everyone's shoulder on that. Like we've got this team together where I was like, okay, I feel like we're going to do it right. And now with the team that we currently have at SEPTA, and you know, I hired all these people and like, you know, we were opening back up and initially we were doing breakfast, lunch and dinner, like just trying to figure out where the revenue was going to come from. And we've like scaled back, but I necessarily had to trust really, really quickly.

17:07And it's something that I do. It's like, if I hire you, then go do it. Like I wouldn't have hired you if I didn't think you could do it. And I now trust you. And it's basically, if that trust is going to go away, it's because you don't step into the role that I've hired you for. And so I'm very much the same way. What's one of those things? What's one of those things if somebody does something, what's something that will lose your trust? I mean, it's like, it's tough to be specific, but it's like, it's just, it's like a consistent lack of, you know, doing what needs to be done for the team. I don't know if they're, or like for the good of the restaurant. And thankfully, I haven't had much experience with this, but it's like, there's no room for, and a lot of people that listen to this, they're going to laugh when I say this, because they would say I have the biggest one of these, but there's no real room for, you know, intense ego. It's the general rule is having it be for the guest. So if your number one priority isn't for the quality of experience for the customer, whether that's your quality of food or the quality of your serving, then that degrades my trust really quickly. But I mean, it's interesting though, in my restaurant, like you can come in and, you know, depending on who your server is, you can have three totally different experiences. Because when I opened Tetsan, we, you know, I'm not a front of house guy, I've never worked front of house. So, but I know what I want a good experience to be. And I've been to enough great, like New York restaurants, and had really shitty service. And to know that that's not what I wanted. So when we opened, I sat, it's like that New York attitude, I'm sure you know what I mean.

19:02But like, we, when we were opening Tetsan, I talked them all down, I was like, look, I'm not going to micromanage y'all on steps of service. I'm, what I want is, like, y'all know how to serve. What I want is for when our guests walk through that door, to be greeted with a genuine smile. And for them to feel like they are being welcomed into our home. And then from if they, if we get that nailed down, if we get that first feeling nailed down, then no matter what small mistake you make, like forgetting a fork or forgetting something, they're not going to care. Because that blow is now cushioned by that, like, that general feel, where they are, like, they've been welcomed into our space. And not that like, y'all are lucky to be here to eat, which is that like, sorry, that New York attitude that drives me insane sometimes. Well, it's not southern hospitality. And it's pretentious. And people when they walk in somewhere new, especially somewhere that's as cool, I mean, your place is very approachable.

20:03But it's very, it's got a very cool vibe. And when you like we walked in there, we didn't know to walk in the front door, we kind of walked around the back, we were like, oh, cool, there's like this really cool outdoor patio, we didn't know what door to walk in. And just walk straight, for those who going just walk straight in the front door, it's fine. There's a little side door too. We walked in and I was kind of like, but there was a really warm, hey, welcome, like, we're happy to have you here. How many like, do you have a reservation? We're like, we do. And they were like, great, where do you want to sit? They gave us an option where we want to sit. And it was very easy to walk in on the front end. I always feel like intention is the thing in which and that goes to part of that attitude. If I have somebody and you kind of talked about ego, but if I can have if I know that everybody working in the building, their intention is to create the best guest experience that they possibly can and to make a memorable dish, then I'm willing to really accept any mistake as long as we can learn from it. But when somebody makes a mistake, and there's no remorse, when somebody makes a mistake, and they're like, well, it's not my fault, they don't take accountability. Or when somebody doesn't care about the guest, well, that guy's an asshole. Like, yeah, yeah, no, that's not that's not okay. Like, there's a right when I get when I when I feel like your intention isn't, we're doing everything we can to take care of the guest, then I start having doubts real quickly. For me, like, it's like, Oh, why is that person here? They're not here for the same reason I'm here.

21:28And I'm here to create an amazing experience for somebody. They're not here for that. This isn't going to work like it's and it's almost like a light switch to me. Yeah, and it's super easy. And you can tell pretty quickly. And you don't even have to be like a seasoned restaurant person to tell to get that feeling when somebody walks in the door, like one of my cooks, he kind of joke about it. But it is measure. It's like, he walks in a restaurant, and he's stand with the host stand, or wherever, you know, the entrance is for like a couple minutes, and no one comes up and greet, like, immediate, that's a bad time. Like there's, you know, because there's the intention and the attention to that detail just isn't there. Now, like, you know, sometimes that just happens. But, you know, when I say, you know, that, that kind of feel and attitude, like I was eating at my name, the restaurant, but I was eating at this really great wine spot in Brooklyn, in New York, a couple years ago. And, you know, they don't they don't know who I am. And there was no hesitation of that. But like, I walk in, I sit at the bar, I order like four things off the food menu. And I order a bottle of like, it's like super funky, like gammae blended with some other grapes. There's like a really strange bottle of wine, four dishes. It's like, most people would be able in a restaurant to be like, and this guy's probably industry, or he just eats at restaurants a lot.

22:55He'd be like, there was nothing like there was no recognition of what it was just like, like, I had to ask for water. It's like I had to like, it was just a very strange experience. Like, I'm not asking for like, to be like the white glove service. But it's like, I'm a single diner. And I just spent 200 bucks on dinner. Like, don't don't act like I'm lucky to have gotten a seat in here. It's just that that was the opposite of what the intention was at that time. And like I said, if you make all these, if you make small service, like mistakes and stuff like that, as long as they know, the guest knows that you are on their side, and you're trying to get it done. That's all that matters. And that's that's our that's our goal. I love it. I think that's so as refreshing here, I think it's fun, pardon me to share with our audience, just kind of the reasoning behind how you do stuff and what you do. And I think that's a good lead in to kind of getting into how we've talked about the culmination of many, many, many years, and what you've done in the end. Let's back into some of your experience and how you got to where you had you can just kind of see things quickly and make stuff happen because it doesn't happen overnight. Where were you born? Where are you from? Like, what's your let's get into your history if you don't mind. Is that cool? No, that's absolutely cool. Yeah.

24:19And so I was originally born in Philadelphia, both sides of my family. I'm still live up there around there. But my dad was born and raised. Absolutely. Definitely not from the basketball court on the west side, but roundabout there, more from the suburbs. He's doing a reboot of that show, by the way. Is he? Yeah, he's like a rougher, edgier version. Carlton better be in it. Carlton. But we moved down to Atlanta when I was about five. So I'm kind of this blend in between northerner, southerner, but I count Atlanta as my home. But again, you know, a little bit north, I grew up in the suburbs. But, you know, did the normal, you know, middle school, high school thing, and then went to University of Georgia. So I went to college in Athens. And it's kind of funny. The first real restaurant I ever ate at was when we went up for like one of my brother's freshman orientations. And my dad took us to five and 10, which is, you know, Hugh Atchison's. At the time, it was his only restaurant. Then the national hadn't even opened yet. And my dad was like, go ahead. Did you listen to him on the show? Did you hear his episode? I did. Yeah, yeah. He's certainly good at digital media and stuff like this. Man can give an interview. He's very good. But it was very interesting. Like my dad, my parents got divorced when I was like eight or nine years old. And my dad, he's a very skilled cook. But it started out very slow. Like my dad, the first dish I ever remember him making for us, I have no idea why he made this. But it was linguini with clam sauce. But it was like, you know, I got like the canned chops, clams, and like, you know, pasta linguini. But it's like one of my earliest childhood

26:25food memories. We're not Italian. We're like straight up Polish. Like my grandfather makes pierogies and stuff. And all that came later. And then slowly over time, he became a better cook. And like, I think he got like the CIA textbook. He got a Jacques and Julia cookbook and started like just cooking more at home just for like fun. But I was bouncing back and forth between my mom and my dad's house. And you know, my mom's probably going to listen to this. Sorry, mom. My mom is not a particularly great savory cook. She is good at cooking like sweets and desserts and stuff. So my food education was not like super developed at home. Like I don't have the like Sean Brock watching his grandmother cook cornbread when he was four years old and like having that sensory memory. I just I don't have that stuff. And my closest thing, you know, to food memories as a kid is like, I remember when I was like 12 or 13 at baseball practice at like nine o'clock at night on a Wednesday, I'm like running up to my mom like, Mom, we got to go. Iron Chef is coming on in 10 minutes. And it's like, you know, the OG Japanese version on Speed Network way back in the day. So like, I was like, completely obsessed with food. Like, without knowing I was obsessed with food at a really young age. And to think that there was a career in food was just not a thing.

27:53Like I didn't, I didn't know you could be a chef. I didn't know like, like restaurants were like really something you could do. You know, it just, I don't know, it just didn't click. So, you know, long story short, I ended up going to University of Georgia. And I studied philosophy with the intention of becoming a lawyer. My brother did the same thing, philosophy lawyer, but kind of saw what he was doing as a lawyer. And, you know, to be honest, it looks terrible. I didn't want to, you know, I don't know, I've always said that like, I think to be a good lawyer, you need a certain level of moral ambiguity. Like you need to be able to argue for your client no matter what they want. And I just couldn't do that. Like I couldn't argue for somebody I didn't agree with. So I would have been a terrible lawyer. Is this your older brother or younger brother? Older brother, he's five years older than me. I have one brother and I have two step-sisters.

28:58Your brother, did you guys have like any sibling rivalry where, you know, he went to school, he went, you know, he got to be a lawyer and you're going to go be a lawyer. But then because he was a lawyer, I mean, was there any of that going on? Because I have an older brother. So it was more like, my brother's five years older than me. And so, you know, I don't know what the cutoff is, but like we essentially grew up independently of each other because there was such a big age gap. But to say that I idolized my brother when I was growing up would be an understatement. I did everything he did. So like I played all the same sports. You know, I studied the same thing as him in college. I enjoyed all of it. But I mean, we were in the same fraternity. I joined the same fraternity because he was in that fraternity. So I did kind of build my life around what I saw him doing. And it's actually rather interesting. The first like real decision I made as an adult, you know, after finishing college was to, and you know, much to the chagrin of my father at the time, probably to take a minimum wage job with zero experience working in a kitchen.

30:13And like that was the first like thing decision I ever made on my own. Because I remember like I was in this weird kind of, this weird summer after college. And before I decided what I want to do, we had gone to the beach or something. And I was there with my dad and I was like, you know, I think I want to like go to culinary school or like cook. And he was like, okay, you should like, if that's what you want to do, like maybe like work in a restaurant. And then if you still want to do it, then go to culinary school. That was his way of saying, this will stop that. Pretty much. And that's not to speak ill of, you know, his intentions. Like, I'll get to it later. But like without my father, I wouldn't be where I am. Like I owe him a whole lot. He's been a serious source of moral support. But at the very beginning, you know, I don't have any kids, but I can't imagine, you know, your kid who's grown up this relatively like privileged childhood, gone to college for, you know, basically no, no money. Like he doesn't, he hasn't had to like really struggle that much. Saying that he's going to choose a career that he knew at the time, like I think he'd read kitchen confidential where it's like, for 10 years, you it's complete struggle. Like there's no like, when I started cooking, like I pay my line cook like 18 bucks an hour starting out. Like when I started cooking, my first job was $6 an hour. And I don't think I broke 12 bucks an hour for seven or eight years. And for two of those years, I was cooking in New York City and I still made like 12 bucks an hour. It's like, that was just the name of the game. So like the utter sense of like fear that my father must have had for me must have been pretty intense.

32:08But he told me, go get a job, you know, cook in a restaurant and see how you like it. I was just gonna say, thanks for telling that story. Because I mean, there's, there's some pretty big stuff. I mean, when it comes down to the psyche of a chef and why you do what you do to graduate college, to I did the same thing. I mean, I have my brother's two and a half years older than me. But I mean, he like Jeeps and I know everything that he did, I wanted to do growing up surfing, to whatever it was, I'm originally from Southern California, but I finally like moved in a different direction. And it was like, Oh, wow, this is who I am. Like I get to do something that's genuinely me. And it feels, it feels good. It's like this, it's a it's a weird feeling that you kind of have to grasp. But then once you get into it, it's really kind of a neat thing. So thanks for sharing that. There's a tangible, like divide in my life, like everything leading up to that. Like when I first started cooking in restaurants, like, it legitimately felt like I was walking down like this pre this pre paved path. And then I started working in a restaurant.

33:19And it was like, I think I legitimately that's when I started to develop my own personality, you know, for better or for worse. But it was like, okay, like, I get to be my own person now. And, you know, I, I, the first job I ever had cooking in a restaurant was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And my brother had just finished law school there at the time. And I was living with him just briefly till I found my own place. And, you know, I you can't you couldn't have been greener than me. Like, I had no experience. Like, I read cookbooks, like, and I'd read plenty of them. Like, but I was like, this is how confused I was about how restaurants work. Like, I was baffled by cookbooks, because I thought chefs just intellectually developed those recipes. Like, I didn't realize that they cook stuff and wrote down what they cook. Like, I thought it was reversed. So like, I didn't understand how the process works. I didn't know how cooking works or anything. So but I got the job and I go in and I like cooked one day on the line. And I felt that adrenaline rush. And this is probably like 30 covers. It was a very slow restaurant. And it wasn't that great of a restaurant. But I literally said to myself at the end of that shift, I was like, this is what I will do for the rest of my life, because I had never felt like it felt like home. And I knew I could do it. I just knew that it would take practice. Thankfully, I ended up being pretty good at it. But it was years and years of, you know, the intense grind that, you know, it's thankfully gotten me to where I am. But it was it was very difficult throughout the process.

35:06But like I said, it was kind of that it was kind of a waking up for me. And that feeling of like, you know, finally developing my own sense of who I am, and this adrenaline rush of service and having it feel like it's what I should be doing, you know, it kind of propelled me through the entire 15 year process of getting to where I am now. But yeah, first job was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, this tiny Italian restaurant inside the Tiena Hotel. And I worked there for about a year and a half or two years, and then moved to New York, like a crazy person. It was a very odd decision. Why that decision? Well, so I mean, when it's not that it's the way anymore. But when I was coming up, you got to remember this is in 2006, 2007. It was still the thing like, there wasn't high end, like really high end restaurant culture in other smaller markets the way that there is today. Like Nashville, there were like, I think Etch may have been open at that point. But like, there's just, but there just wasn't like, like a city wide, high end dining culture that anyone considered as high quality outside of New York, Chicago, LA, San Francisco. So when you were coming up as a cook back then, you had to go like you had to go to New York to cook for the big boys, or big, you know, big people, big girls. It was, I just knew I had to go because I knew, like, so that entire first year I was cooking in Chapel Hill, I read every cookbook I get my hands on, mainly of which one of the cookbooks that probably influenced me more than any other in my entire career is the French London cookbook, which is, you know, if, you know, if there's anyone listening to this that hasn't read that book, go buy it. It's one of the greatest cookbooks ever written. And it's like the first,

37:07every cookbook ever since about restaurants is based on that cookbook. But there's a section in it, it's called How to Trust a Chicken. And it's a story of when Keller was, he went to his first restaurant after like working for his mom at a restaurant. And he was just like a line cook or something. And the chef told him to trust a chicken. And he said, Well, I don't know how to do that. And the chef says, What are you talking about? You were a chef before you came here, weren't you? And he's like, Yeah. And the chef says, Well, you need to know more as a chef than anyone else in your kitchen. You should have a deeper breadth of breadth of knowledge than anyone else. And, you know, at that first restaurant job in Tableau Hill, they were trying to move me up to sous chef after like a year. I was like, this isn't right. I don't know enough yet. I need to leave and I need to learn. And, you know, New York was the place that you'd go to learn if you're on the East Coast in those days. So the chef that I was looking for in North Carolina had worked for a guy named Marco Canora in New York who owns a restaurant called Harf. And he owns a string of their broth shops basically called Brodo in New York. Bone broth is wildly popular.

38:20But he was opening a new restaurant called NCMA, which is the Italian word for together. But he was in the bottom floor of the Michelangelo Hotel. I go and I staged with him for a day. And he asked me what I was trying to do. I said, look, I just want to work in a restaurant in New York. I'm just trying to get a job. And he's like, well, are you going to stage for anybody else? And I go, well, I got to stage at Babo tomorrow, which was Mario Batali's restaurant at the time and Marco and never forget it. He was like, oh, you don't want to work for that asshole. Just come back and I'll give you a job tomorrow. Like, okay. Can I interrupt you for one second? I think that I've got a lot of people listening that don't necessarily, that aren't chefs, don't work in restaurants. And I kind of like to break some stuff down. When you say stage, we're going to break down exactly what a stage is in just a moment after this short word from Trust20. Reopening your restaurant comes with great responsibility. Are you doing everything you can to keep your staff and guests safe? With Trust20 certification, you and your guests can feel confident you're doing everything you can to keep everyone safe. Trust20 is home to the new standard of restaurant safety and consumer comfort. By becoming a Trust20 certified restaurant, diners will know the practices you follow to create a safe and healthy environment. Have confidence you're going above and beyond minimal requirements. Have comfort knowing your practices have been independently verified. To learn more, visit Trust20.co. That's Trust the number 20.co. Trust20 restaurants have access to a suite of resources that include expert-led training in four key areas. Individual consultants, communication material and signage. For National Restaurant Radio listeners now through the end of August, you get free certification when you visit Trust20.co and tell them you heard about them on National Restaurant Radio. Trust20, partnering with you to keep everyone safe.

40:18Yep. Right. I think a lot of people are like, what word is he using? What is that? What's a stage? Can you explain exactly what staging is? Sure. Say there's a couple different forms of it, but in that scenario, stage is just a fancy word for a trial shift, basically. So I had worked in the kitchen for a year, but because it was in a city not of New York, it didn't count. So basically, I had to go in and show them that I knew how to handle a knife, but I wasn't going to cut a finger off, and that I could generally cook or that I was workable, and they could teach me how to do it. So basically, you go in, you are not getting paid, and you work a full shift with the crew. Usually, you're not working directly with chefs. You work with one of the line cooks. The chef will talk to that line cook, ask how you did. Some places will have you do multiple days. When I staged it per se, I did a two-day stage, and at the end of the second day, I had to cook three dishes, basically as an interview, and the chefs all came and tasted it and everything. But a stage is just a tryout, essentially.

41:35And they still exist. I don't know how many of them are unpaid. I don't do unpaid stages anymore because I've worked a large chunk of my career for free, especially when I lived internationally. The other type of stage is you can work somewhere internationally for an extended period of time, like two or three months, so you're not interfering with work visa laws. That is also called a stage, basically an unemployed stint at a restaurant. That's also training, though, right? Absolutely. That's what the payment is. The true payment for that work is the experience, the training, and the fact that you get to say... El Bouyee is a good example. I never worked there, but you get to say you worked at El Bouyee for a season or whatever. I would have worked there for free forever. You do it for the experience, and to be honest, those restaurants, if they had to pay all of their employees what they pay their line cook and stuff, eating dinner there would cost $10,000 for food. Because just hypothetically, not hypothetically, it was this way when I was there. I was staging at Noma when they were named number one restaurant in the world for the second or third time, I can't remember, and there was a 10,000 person wait list every night of service. Lunch, we did 35 covers. Dinner, we did 45 covers. There were 70 cooks.

43:40I like math. You know why? I like math because math doesn't lie, right? Two plus two is always going to be four. Math is very simple. It never changes. It's what it is. Let's do some math. What you just now said, how many covers did you do for the daytime? 35? 35 for lunch, yep. And how many for dinner? 45. So you had 45 covers. When I say covers, 45 diners ate there, and how many people were cooking there at that time? It fluctuated between 60 and 70 people. 60 to 70 people to create food for 40 people. Yeah, so 80 yes in the day, so 35 and 45, but in individual meal service, the most you would do is 45. Why in the world do you need that many people to cook that little bit of food? Well, for each person, it's actually a ridiculous amount of food, but the level of detail and intricacy is just astounding. I'll give you one example.

44:54The kitchen and the dinner is broken up into these sections. The first section, the first area where your food comes from is called the snack section. So basically, you order. These are individual bite things. There's 10 of them that start the meal, and they come out in pretty quick succession. Well, one of the dishes that they would do for VIPs, and VIPs at Noma is like somebody like Sarah Nadria or like Jean George, like the big names in the world. And she was over there or whatever, but one of the VIP snacks was basically, they called it crispy veal fibers. So what you do is you braise a veal neck, and then you, with tweezers, a team of 10 cooks individually pulls each muscle fiber. So not big like pulled chunks or whatever, individual muscle fibers. It takes three ounces of these individual fibers for a portion.

46:02Those then get deep fried and molded into a perfect round ball, dusted with like a creme fraiche and mushroom powder, and then that's your snack. To get five orders of that took about six hours. So the reason you need that many hands is because if Renee, the head chef, walks in and he's been working on something in the test kitchen, the other thing you gotta realize is the test kitchen that has a head of R&D, a head pastry chef that only does pastry research, and then a couple of like sages exclusive to the test kitchen. So you got a team of five people right there. If they are working on something and they come and they're like, all right, so we're going to do this like, and this is the dish that we worked at, we're going to do this like gently boiled potato dish in a Danish pea miso. Oh, we make the miso. So that's a four month fermentation process. The potatoes have to be individually scraped of their very thin skin, but don't cut too deep or make any excess marks on the potato because then it's not usable.

47:12Then we're going to steam those potatoes lightly, glaze them in the butter, and then to top it off, we need you to go find branches from elderflower trees, sharpen the tip of the branch into a poking utensil because that's what you're going to use to eat it. And then to the top of that, you're going to tie an elderflower flower to it because after you eat the potato, you're going to dip the flowers in the butter and then eat the flowers. It takes a long time. And that was a dish we developed like in the lead up to like their annual food festival. And that's insane. It's crazy. And the one thing I'm very proud of, the one thing I contributed while I was there is I created that implement, the stabbing spear and flower thing, which is really cool until it went into the restaurant and the actual cooks had to produce this. There was a team of like 10 stages running around Copenhagen looking for the perfect elderflower branches that we could then turn into these utensils because we needed 80 of them a night.

48:22And it was just like, it's just pure insanity up to a certain point. So this is what I'm talking about though, because I listened to this in the way that my brain works is I just, there's so many facts, so much going on in my head right now. You're just the creativity. I don't know, whoever the chef is, there has got to be just, I don't even know how you manage a kitchen like that. It's just insane. But the culture of a place like that. And when I asked you how you hire people, like not that you're doing that, but I mean, some people, I know people that talk about wine. They go, how the hell does wine cost $200 a bottle, $4,000 a bottle. I just don't get it. I like a $10 bottle. You go, well, that's awesome. McDonald's will get you full. But then you can also have 10 people pull individual fibers from a veal neck to create a tiny ball that you're going to fry and then dust with a mushroom and creme fraiche powder. Is that what you said it was? And that level of detail, the cost of what that must cost just to produce and sell it. I mean, I'm like, I want to taste that. I want to know what that tastes like. And then to work in a place like that, to constantly have your brain in a daily mess of that level of detail, that level of creativity, that level of just focus you've got to do. Moving forward to today, like trying to create your own kitchen and articulate to people those experiences, that level of expectation, that's a lot.

49:59It's a lot. I mean, so that's the thing about a restaurant like that. And I know a lot of people will say, why does it cost that much to eat for food? Or like, why does it cost that much to eat there? I get it. There are very few chefs that I would call artists. I think it's a relatively pretentious term. And I think most of us are practicing a craft. To be honest, like we know the rules. We know the rules of cooking. If you follow the general rules of cooking in terms of, you know, salt and heat and acid and you know, all that stuff, you're going to produce something delicious. Rene Redzepi, the head chef of Noma, you know, other people like, you know, Dominique out in San Francisco or Grant, you know, I'm not, you know, I don't particularly dig a linear style food. They are operating on a level of creation. Like they are, they are making something new that does not exist in the world that is as culturally relevant as any painting or sculpture or piece of music. And it deserves to be appreciated. The trick is, you can't do what they do alone. The sheer number of man hours required to create what they do, to create a 20 plus course tasting menu for 80 people a day, it just requires a lot. I mean, and when you're there, like I said, I would still be there working for free. A guy that I started there with, and this was like seven years ago, he is still there. He will be there until they basically make him leave. It is the most intoxicating, creative, collaborative environment that I have ever been a part of. And you know, some people might look at it like, I was working 16 hours a day. And they'd be like, well, that's, you know, kind of abusive. You shouldn't work that long. Everyone in that building is there because they want to be there. No one is being forced to be there. They love it. They are intoxicated and addicted to that restaurant because of the culture

52:05of it. It's such a healthy culture. But yeah, it's like the expectation. And so that's the thing. It's like, I'm very fortunate to have worked in a restaurant like that. You know, it takes a certain level of financial ability to get to go do it because they don't pay you. And Copenhagen is an extremely expensive city to live in. So you have to pay your room and board. So you got to figure how to live and you go to work every day. So I said, I wouldn't be here without my father. My dad helped me. I told him one day, I was like, look, Noma emailed me back. They said I can come stage. I got to figure out how to pay for it. And he said, don't worry about it. We'll figure it out. And that has essentially made my career up to after that fact. But when we're talking about expectations, and this is how intense they are, and this is a story that I really like to tell, even though it doesn't particularly show that greatly on me. So I was cooking in what's called the sauce section of the Noma kitchen, which you do make all the sauces, but you also do all the large like meat work. So if you do like a roasted sweet bread, or you do like the main fish course, or whatever, you're taking care of major croaking. And we had to make these little parcels, whereas a piece of fish wrapped in a perfectly blanched piece of cabbage, and it was stuffed with dill, dill oil, and lemon verbena. And those little packages were then grilled right before they went after the guests. Just perfectly grilled and finished. Well, that day, I was making them. And I talked to my line cooks, like my boss, essentially. His name was Emil. I said, hey, Emil, looks like we're out of dill. What do you want me to do? He said, just put a little bit of extra dill oil inside. It'll be fine. I'm too busy to ask questions. So I just say, okay. So fast forward about an hour or two, middle of service. One of the cooks on

54:08grill got a little bit too much char in one of the packages, a little fish cabbage package. And I just happened to be downstairs taking Emil something from the prep kitchen. And I see Renee, the head chef, looking at the overcooked parcel, looking inside. And he just screams, who made these effing cabbage parcels? And my heart immediately almost stops. I'm like, I did. I raised my hand. I said, I did, chef. And the thing else you need to remember about this, Renee is about five foot eight or nine. I'm six one. He charges me, pushes me against a wall. And his other arm is behind him. And it's like shaking. And in my head, I'm like, oh my God, please punch me. Not to sue or anything like that. I just want the story of the number one chef in the world punching me because I did something. I'm sitting there like, I don't know what to do. And finally, Emil from behind is like, chef, I told him to leave the dill out.

55:17So, you know, it felt like, you know, in the movie. Ratatouille? Kind of. I'm thinking about that chef when you said that. Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. You did not make the soup. Exactly. The most intense thing. So, but he like, it's like any exorcist when her head swivels around in her body. A little different movie we were thinking of. Yeah. But no, his head swiveled around to like a meal to like focus on him. So, and then in that moment, he forgot I even existed. And Emil had been at Noma. He started there as like an apprentice when there were like 10 people working there and had been there and like built the restaurant up from nothing with like Rene as a part of the team. And Rene goes over to him and is like, I was about to send you to like Dukas in the Riviera, like Elaine Dukas was pre-missions our rep track. Then we're going to send you to Japan. I'm not sending you fucking anywhere. You're at the bottom of the barrel now. And like, we basically just get through the rest of service and like we meet up afterwards.

56:19We're like, what just happened? So like, we go home, like, I don't know if I can even come back the next day. We both get in, you know, we get through lunch service and then in between lunch and dinner, there's staff meal. And then everyone kind of take a break for about 15, 20 minutes. And you go outside and Noma used to be right on the canal. And we go outside and Rene is standing on like the pier overlooking the Copenhagen canals in the city, like Batman on a perch or something overseeing his territory. And like, we both just like, we look at each other and we're like, we got to go talk to him. So we like, just like head down, like side a lot next to him. And he like, without blinking or acknowledging us, he says, we are at too high a level to cut any corners. Do you understand that? And we both just say, yes, yes. And he says, good, get back to work. And we never mentioned it again. We never talked about it again. But I guarantee you, if you showed the Noma staff that was there at the time, and it's still there a picture of me, they would still call me dill boy, because they think I forgot to put the dill in the packages. And they would all remember that story. Like it was a ridiculous day. But that's the level of intensity around a tiny herb that was left off of the dish that literally no one was going to notice, but he knew. And that was enough. Now, you know, I know a lot of people outside of the restaurant world will say, that's insane. And that's like the most that's the craziest, you know, it's like, you know, sometimes gaslighting abuse, but it's like, that is one of my favorite stories. Like, and it's like one of the it's like, it taught me how to be the chef that I am. I don't do that. But I take that the emotion that I felt in that moment.

58:20And I tell that story in a funny way, so that my cooks understand, you know, we don't have to deal with somebody that, you know, can fly off the handle like that. And as much but they understand the intent. And they're like, okay, like, let's pay attention to the details, basically. As I say, what? Gosh, thanks again for telling that story. That was an amazing story. You know, we talked about staging in all of that time, that putting the resume together, getting the opportunity flying there, getting an apartment working for free for however long you were there. What you learned from that experience, you'll take with you for the rest of your life. 100% Yeah, absolutely. And that's like, oh, good, greatest honor is my entire life, like, and it was, and it look, I mean, there are those moments where that was like a hyper intense moment. But it generally is pretty flawlessly run like the, the quality of people that go there, that make the trip and invest that time and everything. They're, you know, you don't go there to mess around like you're like you go there to work at the restaurant. And when you're there, you know, it's all hands on deck, like you're all focused, and then you go home and sleep, you come back and do it again. But I mean, I was 27 at the time, and I was one of the older guys, like I was the rest.

59:54I mean, it's usually like 21, 22, 23. And, you know, they've been kind of dodging and jumping all over. Like, there's definitely like a loop of like high end European restaurants where line kits of a certain of a certain class, like if they have the money, they just kind of jump around between all these restaurants. And so yeah, I mean, I, I left there because I couldn't get a Danish work visa. And then I went back to the States and worked at per se, which, you know, we can get into it, but it could not have been a more different work environment. I like not only did I keep working at per se, I did a terrible job at per se. I was not, I was not one of, I didn't succeed there. I was never going to be, you know, I was never going to rise through the ranks at a Thomas Keller restaurant. It was very difficult. Yeah. You, you leave Noma, you leave Denmark, you come back to New York, and where you now have this, you're full of energy, hope, creativity. You've just worked at the best restaurant in the world. Not the best restaurant in Nashville, not the best restaurant in New York, not the best restaurant in DC, LA, Chicago, wherever. Best restaurant in the world. And now you're moving to New York, you're going to work at per se, Thomas Keller, who wrote the cookbook that you base all cookbooks on.

01:01:20The reason I cooked. Yeah. The reason you cooked. What, what was your first impression? Like when you first walked in, you first got, did you stage there to begin? Did you get a job there? How did that work? Okay. So the, there's another quick note about Noma. So the, the last half of my time there, about two and a half, three months, I became, I was the stage in the test kitchen. So I was working day to day with just the test kitchen people, which is Renee. And then the head, the head chef, his name is, was Matt Orlando. He's a really cool, he's an American dude. He's like a surfer guy from San Diego, but just, he's never not worked in a three Michelin star restaurant. Like he's just one of those guys where like the top of the top, he's one of the most creative best chefs I've ever met. But he was the executive sous chef at per se before he went to Noma. So I was talking to him, I was like, look, I'm trying to figure out what my next step is. I don't know if I want to go back to New York. When I was younger, I don't particularly like living in New York City. I don't like the grind of it. I don't like the subplates. It's just not for me. I'll live there if I have to for the job. And he told me, and it was true, he said, if you don't go back now, because I was 27, you never will. Like you won't move back there to work.

01:02:41So I said, okay, let me give it another shot. So he hooked me up with the stars at per se. And you asked me, you know, how to describe it. It's refined. Like it is the highest level of French refinement you can get mixed with this American sensibility. But I walk in and so there's a few rules at per se. Number one, before your shift, you have to iron your apron and your chef lights. So you basically have to have perfectly pressed lights. And you have to be clean shaven and you have to have all black besides your chef lights. And if you and this is one of the things if you grow facial hair quickly, they'll make you go shave mid shift to clean up your facial hair. So mid shift mid shift. Yeah. So if you get a five o'clock shadow, like mid shift, you have to go clean it up because it's not meeting the standard of the kitchen. So that is compared to Noma where Danish people like to wear beards. And, you know, there are some guys there that had giant beards and this long hair. I mean, the Noma kitchen, there was music blasting. Renee loves Tom Petty and jazz.

01:04:03So like there's a lot of music blasting the whole time per se was silent. It was, you know, militaristic. It was, you know, everyone was chef, chef, chef, not because, you know, it's a respect thing. I have a feeling it's because there were, you know, 40 people in the kitchen and they just couldn't remember everybody's name. It was it felt impersonal to me. Now I'm not putting this entirely on the kitchen. I don't think it was the biggest culture shock that I could have selected to go from Noma, which is this like freewheeling, super creative environment to per se, which is the epitome of regimented cooking, which also just happens to hate Noma and the style of food that they cook there. They like, they just, not saying they do now, but some of the cooks I worked with at the time, like, thought it was like, you know, I don't know, it wasn't French and it wasn't fancy enough. So it didn't count basically. So I didn't have, I had that going against me. But no, I mean, I, you know, I went from in the Noma kitchen to, you know, I did my massage, got a job and that was a very proud day. Like I told my dad and my dad also loved the French laundry cookbook.

01:05:21I think he got me my first copy. I told him that I got a job at per se and he started to cry. I started to cry on the streets of New York. Like it was a big day. It was a very proud day, which made the, you know, eventual, you know, like, I mean, it's one of the only jobs that I left before a year was up. Like I, I was, and I, you know, I can't say this enough. I was not successful at per se. I did not have a good experience there. I think it was a combination of expectations of what I thought it was going to be like. And then also, I just don't think I'm, at that age and what I was ready to do, I, it wasn't, it wasn't good for me to go back to being absolute bottom-up in the totem pole. And my start of the job as a homey and for, you know, anyone that's not in the restaurant, anyone that's never worked in a French restaurant, homey is essentially a prep cook.

01:06:24So I would go in and, you know, the night cooks, we would go in at four o'clock in the morning. Night cooks would basically leave an order guide where it's all this stuff that we needed to make. And for the next 16 hours, we would, and you know, we would literally run, like we would be running around the kitchen, trying to get all this done, just barely getting it done and having four sous chefs screaming at you the entire time. And I'm, I'm literal screaming, like you're getting yelled at the whole time. And it's difficult to figure out how to do one project to satisfy four sous chefs that want it all done a different way. And it's just, it was a difficult working environment. I can imagine that. That sounds like a blast. Yeah, it's great. And then, but also it's the thing where um, it's so refined where like everything is, look, I mean, it's the nicest kitchen I've ever worked in my entire life. Like everything is top of the line. It's like you wanted for nothing, but it was the closest environment I've worked in that I could consider like abusive. Like it was psychologically difficult to go to. I was just going to say, you mentioned the story with Renee in Noma and you said, it's not, it's not like you're going to hear this. It's going to sound like I'm gaslighting an abusive thing. Like it's not that way. And I feel like your story does that, but I was just going to say it sounds like this is a hostile work environment.

01:08:00Like had I been in like, I've never, maybe it's because it's through fault of my own, but like I've never complained to an HR department. Like I've never, I've only worked in a couple of restaurants. I've had HR departments, so I didn't even think it was an option. Like I came, like when I started cooking, I was at the tail end of, um, you know, that's just how it was. Like when I first worked for Marco in New York, like I had shit thrown at me. Like, like it was like one of those environments where it's like they're screaming, they're throwing, and you know what, that's just what a kitchen is and you've got to get through it. Otherwise you're not a cook and that's just what you got to do. Thankfully, it's not like that anymore. And it's because, you know, people like me or like people like, you know, Julia Sullivan over at Henrietta, she worked at Per Se too. Like I haven't, I think she may have had a different experience than I did, but it's, you know, this thing's very like the last generation, including myself and that, that went through that, we just got tired of it. And like, we're not trying to run our kitchens like that. It's not healthy. So when I was in Per Se, it was very much like, I didn't want to go to work. Like when I woke up at three 30 to jump on the train to go to work, I had to make myself do it. Like it wasn't like a joyful experience to go into work. And you know, there are a lot of people that have survived and thrived there. Like there are people that work at Per Se for 10 years. I don't know how they do that because that sounds like you're a torture to me, but- They're the ones who are yelling.

01:09:30They are. And, but there are, so there was another guy, one of the sous chefs there, his name was Nick Ferreira. He was a really nice guy. And to this day, and like when I was going through the process, it was like, how did you get to that level within that company? Because I just didn't see how I could grow and develop within it. Like I made, there was one day when I, I did something and they didn't realize it until like the end of service. And then I came in the next day and one of, and that, that sous chef Nick came up to me and he was like, you know, I'm not going to give you a hard time about this. You just need to know that that can't happen again. I was like, okay. He's like, no, I don't think you get it. You're, you're about to have the worst day you've ever had in the kitchen. And like one of the line cooks who my mistake affected came up to you and was like, don't take this personally, but they told me I have to rip on you the entire day. And like, like then the entire staff just came down as hard as possible on me for one day. It's just like, after dealing with that, I mean that would happen like right before Christmas break. And after Christmas break, I didn't go back. I was like, I can't, I can't handle this. I was about to have an emotional breakdown. It was like, and I am, I count myself as being a relatively strong willed, you know, I can put up with a lot, but it was just, it was too much for me. And so I don't count my time per se as a successful experience, whether it's, you know, through a fault of my own or just a cultural issue. But Well, that's, that's me. That's intense, man. I think that we're going through this pandemic and I think a lot of people are, this has been an opportunity for people to stand up and say, Hey, there's a, there's a lot of insanity that happens in jobs. I think that through, through a lot of this time to reflect, I think there's a lot of people looking back going, Hey, was there a lot of racist things yelled? I mean, I'm not saying don't call them out,

01:11:31but like when somebody's yelling that much, is there, is there stuff yelled at women? Is there stuff yelled? Cause you're just in the middle of this atmosphere. And I feel like that's a culture that people have talked about in restaurants and we've got to get it under control. I mean, cause that stuff's not okay. And like you just said, the new generation is okay with that. You know, and it's, it just can't be that it just isn't that way anymore. Generally. From my experience and you know, I, do you know who Kwame is? He wrote a book called notes from a young black chef. He owns a restaurant called Kiff and Kin in Washington, DC. But he, we were there at the same time. He was an extern. And if you don't know an extern is it's a culinary student from a culinary school that is doing like, it's basically a, an internship, but for kitchens. And he was doing his externship and he wrote a book that basically called out per se and some other high level kitchens for, you know, some racist culture and stuff.

01:12:39To be honest, I never saw anything like that. And I never heard me overt things. Um, and there were, you know, especially for say the, there were women moved up quite quickly. The head pastry chef was a woman. The couple, one of the sous chefs was, I think it was just more generally, you know, it's probably going to get me in trouble, but like they were just assholes to everybody. And like, that's just, and it was, look, I mean, I'm a white dude and I got it as hard as you can possibly get it. If you got it harder than me at per se, um, you left faster than I did. Yeah. You just didn't stay. Like I had a really bad work experience there. And you know, for a combination of reasons, but I don't, I wouldn't say that they're racist or misogynistic. They're just hard on everybody. And I mean, I didn't get favorable treatment because I'm a white dude. I'll say that. Like I was given, I was given a very hard experience, but you know, that informs, you know, how I wanted to run kitchens moving forward because look, you have that bad of an experience. It's just as important to learn how not to do something as it is to do something. So, you know, having worked in that restaurant, I was like, okay, I'll never do that.

01:14:04I'll never run a kitchen like that. So. Yeah. No. And I, I, I thank you for just kind of answer that question because I mean, I think that people out there, I mean, this is, it's a highly irregular work environment, you know, and people don't recognize that that happens all over the place. Really a lot of times, a lot of, a lot, most restaurants are not like that, but in that high intensity attention to detail, everything has to be perfect. That comes from the top too. I mean, that just, it's everything has to be this way. You identified that's not for you. Your next step was to go back home, right? Yep. Yep. So tell me about that experience. So, and I got to give you quite a bit of credit here, but I, I basically called Hugh because he, and one of his jobs earlier is like, he was like the opening sous chef for Gary Danko's restaurant in San Francisco. And I think Danko, like basically wanted him to be an enforcer, like really come down hard on people, like legitimately, like made people cry and like just be that like, break him down, exactly. And Hugh, I don't think it was something we looked at and eventually ended up leaving and opening his own restaurant.

01:15:20So I knew- You're talking about Hugh Atchison. Yeah, yeah, Hugh Atchison. So I knew he'd been in that environment and he'd been through a similar experience. So I called him and was like, look, man, this is where I'm at. Oh, and sorry, we didn't make this clear. I had worked for Hugh at his Atlanta restaurant called Empire State South before I went to NOVA. So I knew him. And so I come up like, look, man, I'm going through a really hard time. I don't think this is right for me. I don't know what to do. Do you have any advice? And he said, you need to stay there as long as you possibly can until you just can't anymore and learn as much as you can. And if you, if you ever want to make a move back home, we'll find a place for you. And I said, okay. So I think I made it like two more weeks. And I called him. I was like, look, man, I think I'm done. Like, I can't, I can't go back into that building. Like, it's too hard. He said, okay, well, I'm looking for an executive chef to take over at five and 10. And he's like, what would you think about that? And I said, it sounds great.

01:16:34Let's talk about the details and figure it out. And this is where I got to give him credit, not only for helping me through this time, for anyone not in the industry, I'm sure all cooks and sous chefs and exec chefs know that the hardest transition in the entire industry to make is sous chef to executive chef, to be given the chance to run your own kitchen with no one above you on site. And I wasn't even a sous chef. I was a line cook at, you know, per se, which, you know, great restaurant, obviously. But I, the last time I'd been a sous chef was at restaurant Eugene in Atlanta, like six years before that. Like, I just didn't have much management experience. And she offered me the job basically without, without anything. I didn't have to do a cook test. I have nothing. He just handed me this job. So eventually moved back home. And that had kind of always been the goal. The South is my home. And it's where I feel most comfortable. But yeah, I owe Hugh a lot because if not for that kind of mentorship right there and the job offer, you know, I have no idea where I would be. What was the main difference when you got to five and 10? Was it like, was it kind of, was it like coming home? Was the culture just completely different? Would you walk in? It was like, okay, I can now be creative again. I can now have fun again. Was it, what was it like finally leaving that toxic environment? Well, it stuck with me for a while, which is kind of interesting. But so when I moved back, I did like four or five months at Empire State South in Atlanta as a kind of an in-between period, a little bit of a transition.

01:18:25Empire State South was getting a new shift. And then I was going to take a five and 10. So I had this kind of few month period where I like set up a fermentation program at Empire State South and was just cooking on the line and just kind of getting sea legs back, so to speak. But it was a very difficult transition because for me, I didn't do my year at per se. I wasn't successful there. It felt like a failure. It was also my second time in New York and not having a good experience. So I was dealing with all these like, yes, I got this promotion and like, I'm going to run my own kitchen. But at the same time, in my own head, I failed miserably at something that I like had really set out to do. Like I accomplished a career goal of mine to go to New York or work in a Thomas Keller restaurant. And it went up in flames. And that was not what my goal was. I wanted to go there. I wanted to be successful. I wanted to leave after my year and have a good experience. I assume I'm blackballed at per se. I'm assuming if I put it on a resume, they wouldn't even acknowledge that I worked there, which is fine. It's just what it is.

01:19:39It's fine. It's just what it is. So there was a lot of emotional kind of baggage to deal with coming back from that. So when I first took over at Five and Ten, it is a very good restaurant. They do great work there. But the chef that I was taking over for, his name is Kyle Giacovino, he is about as Italian a chef as you can get. And I don't think you can get much further from what I was trying to do than what he was doing. So there was big changes that had to happen. We had a good staff, but I was a terrible manager. And I was like, trying to like, will people through, you know, I was yelling and doing all the stuff, making all the mistakes. And I couldn't understand why no one was like, giving me the respect that I thought I deserved. It was like, I just get from working at NoMent per se, why isn't anyone listening to me and being on my team? And, you know, he used to have me down. I was like, look, man, you got to show them respect, like them first, and then they'll come along. And they'll be on the team with you. I was like, but I'm the boss. Like, why do I have to show them the respect first?

01:20:51It's like, doesn't my, shouldn't my work earn the respect? He's like, it's just not how it works, man. Like, you're the guy at the top, but you have to extend the respect and you have to extend the olive branch for anyone to be on your team. And if you don't do that, you're not going to be successful because they're just not going to help you out. They're not going to do what you need them to do. So, I mean, that was a multi-year process, I mean, to get there. And I was the chef at Five and Ten for two years before I just decided I needed a fresh start. But we did some great work there. And we really kind of developed the restaurant into, I think, where it is today. And they've had some really great chefs since, but it was a rocking transition because, like I said, emotionally, I was dealing with what felt like a major failure, even though for, I think, anyone looking from the outside, even like, you just work at No Men Per Se, but, I don't know, it felt like a bump in the road and I had to work it out, which took a long time.

01:22:01Wow. Okay, so that was a lot right there. But self-reflection, going back in, I know Hugh sat you down and kind of said, hey, this style, you still probably had a lot of animosity leaving those places. And that's the kind of leadership that had been modeled for you over the past little bit of time. And you thought, I mean, did you ever get any formal, leadership training? Or was it just all right on the job? No, it's all on the job. I mean, looking back at how I was at 5 and 10, it was, I was trying to play that leader that, I was trying to do what Renee had done, but I didn't know how to do it. And I wasn't old enough or experienced enough. It was like my first exec chef job, the only thing I cared about was the quality of the food and what we were putting out. But the thing that I wasn't remembering is that I was in Athens, Georgia, which is a tiny college town and I need my staff to be on my side because there's not a lot of people to come in and replace anyone if they ask. The people that were working there were well-trained and they knew how to cook and they knew how to serve. It was more, it was a me issue more than anything else. And it took a lot of time to finally kind of get everybody on my team, which did eventually happen. But my issue with that restaurant was more, I wanted to do more ambitious, like food, like I wanted to kind of push the envelope further. And it just wasn't, like I said, staff in Georgia, it was a tough tough place to really push the envelope. But no, there was no formal leadership training. There was no, you know, Hugh was rather hands-offish because he had, you know, he had like, you know, book tours and like other restaurants to run. And he was there if I needed him. But the normal day

01:24:08to day management of the restaurant was very much less than me. And just getting thrown in there and figuring out as you go, you're going to make a lot of mistakes. And I certainly made every single mistake you can possibly make, which, you know, to this point now, especially after Treehouse and everything, like, I think I'm a relatively good leader and good at what I do. But it has taken a lot of, you know, mistakes to figure out how to get here. So that's what I was going to ask you, when was this realization? Because it sounds like you've had, you've had some really good self-reflection and you sound like when you talk about it, like you've been able to process it, you've been able to reflect upon that experience and really digest it and grow from it. Was there somebody that helped you do that? Was there a particular experience that helped you do that? Was it just time and looking back? Was it mornings where you woke up and you had that guilt, that pain, like, God, I wish I hadn't done that. Like, how did that process work out for you?

01:25:12A lot of just time and self-reflection. I feel like I knew it pretty much from the beginning, like everything I've been talking about, like how that whole experience in New York kind of affected me and everything, but just working it out on a day-to-day basis just took time. And I don't think I really processed it all completely until probably my last year as the chef at Treehouse. So it took probably four solid years of running kitchens and self-reflection and kind of coming to terms with how my experience had been and, you know, figuring out how to best manage people. There's no one way. Everybody on your staff needs to manage a different way, which, again, was a very difficult thing to realize. But no, it was, I, you know, I'm jealous of other chefs out there that have more mentor relationships. Like, you know, I just have never had them. I've been pretty much, I've been a lone wolf most of my career. Like, I've just gone and worked at a bunch of places and, you know, ended up leaving and moving on to the next thing. But no, I think it would have made it easier had I had somebody to kind of talk to about it, but it just took time and personal growth, which thankfully I was afforded. You know, I'm sure I made some mistakes working for you where anybody else would have just fired me, like, because I was, I just was having a hard time figuring it out. Thankfully, that didn't happen. And, you know, Treehouse, when I eventually moved to Nashville, it was great because I was given carte blanche to do whatever I wanted to do. And because of my resume, I got some really great staff to come in. So, I don't know, it was time and self-reflection more than anything else. And thankfully, I've had the chance to internalize it now to where,

01:27:16you know, I have a great staff that, you know, we just sit down and we have quick meetings and that's how we run the business. And I kind of give them the freedom to, you know, they're going to make their own mistakes. Like, Brad is basically my CDC chef de cuisine at set time now. And I told him, I was like, look, man, you're going to make all these mistakes. You just need to have the right attitude about it and the staff will be behind you. So, it's been a very long journey to get to where I am. No, I've enjoyed hearing all of this and we're going to have to wrap up because we're at a minute or an hour and 22 minutes. But what I want to do is I want to ask you real quick, if I'm a chef out there and I'm in your shoes or I'm in my mid-20s and I've got a lot of talent and I'm working towards, you know, I want to be an executive chef. I want to be a leader. Maybe you are an executive chef position, executive sous chef, or you're in a leadership position. What do you think the most important bit of wisdom you could give them right now is based upon your experiences and what you've done and people that might not have somebody they can go to? Listening to this interview, what knowledge would you bestow upon that person?

01:28:40I think the most important thing you can do in any situation is to basically don't react immediately. Always take a second to absorb any situation or any potential decision that you could make and kind of reflect on it and, you know, give yourselves as much time as you need. But don't be hasty in your decisions. There's plenty of time. You don't have to rush. Like when I was in my mid-20s, you know, and I was like a line cook, I need to be an executive chef by the time I'm 30. I need to be, you know, own my own restaurant by the time I'm 32. There's no timeline that anyone is like holding you to. So if you are in this management position, just get comfortable in it and get good at it. And you don't need to rush to the next phase of your career. The things will organically develop that are going to develop. If you, you know, have the opportunity to step up to an executive chef role or if you have the opportunity and somebody wants to open a restaurant with you, great. But if you're in an executive soup position for a couple of years with a chef you respect and, you know, you get to be creative in your learning, that is in and of itself a great position to be in. And you shouldn't always be looking for the next step. So be patient in your career, which is something I was not, is the biggest piece of wisdom. And then another smaller one, number two is don't assume that you are always correct. Somebody with less experience or in a lower position than you may have a better idea and don't be afraid to take those ideas and use them. Give the person credit they came up with the idea, but don't think that you always know best. The top-down approach to where, you know, I'm a dictator and we are only going to do what I say and preventing

01:30:46that internal creativity from developing is going to make your restaurant worse. So cultivate a culture of creativity and be patient in your career. Good stuff, man. Thank you so much for taking the time. What I want to do now is we're going to wrap up this interview, but I want to keep you on and I want to go over my dinner last night. I want to ask you about the individual dishes that we had and if you wanted to watch that video, this video is going to end. Go check out our YouTube channel and I'm going to have my dinner broken down with Chef Jason Zygmunt right now. So go check us out on YouTube. You can hear or watch that video. Chef, thank you so much for joining us today and thank you for sharing your story. We got to do this again. I could talk for another hour and a half on your experiences in Nashville. I got plenty of stories, man. I didn't even touch on Spain. Yeah, so we got to do this again. Thanks again. Click over to YouTube channel to hear about his food. Thanks, guys.

01:31:53Thanks. All right. Big thanks to Jason Zygmunt for taking the time out of his day to do all of that and, you know, he actually took a lot more time. I did mention that I had eaten there and I know I mentioned it towards the end there, but if you go to our YouTube page right now, actually, if you go to our Facebook page too, I have uploaded the video of Jason going over his entire menu. Every single thing that we eat, he goes over and explains kind of what it is and how it is. So I don't know if you've ever been to Setsun, if you like the food, if you've had the bit of everything, but if you're curious about it, Jason explains everything for us and if you are if you want to learn a little bit more about what you could possibly go eat, please feel free to check out that video and it's pretty interesting. So thank you guys for listening today. Thank you for watching today and we hope that you are being safe and love you guys. Bye.