Margaret Littman

00:00We are joined with Jason Ellis from SuperSource Nashville. They have been a sponsor for this podcast for almost three years. We are so honored to work with them. This is a great company and a great man. Jason, what can people expect if they give you a call? We'll come out, do a complete audit of their facility, see in which ways we could help them approve, if any, and see what we can do as far as helping them save some money. So the first thing they got to do is just give us a call, 770-337-1143, or they can email me directly at jellis at supersourceinc.com. We'll come out, take a look at your operations, see in which ways we can help. That's amazing. So if you're out there right now listening to this, call Jason Ellis or email him today. Welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio, the tastiest hour of talk in Music City. Now here's your host, Brandon Styll. Hello, Music City, and welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio.

01:12My name is Brandon Styll, and I am your host. We are powered by Gordon Food Service, and we are excited to come at you late on a Monday. We will be joined shortly with our co-host, Caroline Galzin. We are going to be joined today with our special guest, Margaret Littman, and she is a freelance writer, and mostly I know her from her writing in the Nashville scene, where she wrote several writers' picks this year, and in this episode we talked to her about that. We talked to her about her process, how they figure out who does the best of Nashville writers' picks, and all the things. This is a fun interview, and she is just amazing, and we always love having writers in here because they really have a different perspective on everything, and I know that we get stuck all the time inside the building, and it's nice to know what writers are thinking and how they choose what they go after and what they do, and that's what we talked about today.

02:13So this was a lot of fun, and don't have a lot to start with. Sorry this is coming out a little bit late today. We are, we're busy, so we're gonna jump in right now with Margaret Littman. Super excited today to welcome in Margaret Littman, and she, I guess I know her as a writer for the Nashville scene, but you're a freelance writer. Correct, thanks for having me. This is so fun. It's an honor to have you, and welcome Caroline. Hi, I'm back again. Back again, well, yes. I'm back, I'm here, I'm here today. Wow, we are so excited to have you here. I think that we have so many, I love having writers in the studio because you're kind of talking beforehand, just that you see so many things around the town, and there's, your perspective is so varied around town, and it's just good to have you here. I don't know where this conversation is going to go, but it's going to be fun.

03:14Thanks. So we did, I want to start off with Best of Nashville, is that okay? Sure. We just had the Best of Nashville show, we had Chris Chamberlain in, and you were one of the writers, you had 10 writers picks this year in the Best of Nashville. That sounds right. I didn't count them, but sure. Well, I want to start with one that's very near and dear to my heart. Well, let's ask this question. How do you decide which, how much, do you get a, you get eight or you get 10? Is there, is there a meeting where you get doled out so many? There is a meeting, I'm not in that meeting, but so as we get close to Best of Nashville, we all sort of pull together pitches for different editors about who we think should be included. So in a little, in a way I'm sort of keeping these ideas going all year, and then we pitch in different categories, and I, when I'm coming up with pitches, I try to think about, obviously, what the best is, but best is, you know, really kind of a subjective term. So I also think about Best of Nashville as a way to maybe underscore some folks who are doing interesting things, who haven't gotten a lot of credit for it, try to, try to have a little bit of depth and nuance beyond just places that are great food, and then I pitch them, and then there is some magic meeting.

04:39Again, I'm not in it where they figure out how that all works together, and I suspect they get some pitches that are the same, so then they figure out who needs to write that, and then we get assignments, so. I was going to say, do you kind of reverse engineer any of them, where you're like, this is a place I really want to make sure I'm highlighting, so I could say this category, that category, that category, just to make sure that I get them in there somewhere? Yeah, sometimes if there's somewhere I really want to get in, I think about what's a category where this might work, and if there's, I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but something, well, it wasn't this year, it was last year's Best of Nashville. I really wanted to do something about that soft service station in East Nashville. I think what they've done at that corner on Porter Road has really made that neighborhood really interesting, and so I had to think about, okay, how can we get this in there, because I knew it wouldn't compete, you can't see my air quotes, compete with, you know, best restaurants, so how do you think about a category where something like that could fit in? For the bigger ones, like best chef, best restaurant, all of those, did those get assigned to specific people, or is that part of that pitch process as well, where somebody will come in and say, hey, I feel really strongly that this chef should be named best chef this year, and it's kind of a... I mean, it's a little bit of the same process, but yeah, we all make pitches, and in those cases, since we kind of know what those important categories are, there's some back and forth about saying why we think this place is, and sometimes it seems so obvious, you know, sometimes my pitch will be, we can't have a conversation because this is the only option, and I definitely felt like that about Kisser this year for best restaurant. There are lots of good new restaurants, but when we're talking about that

06:41kind of award, it felt really clear to me, but of course, other people had other ideas. Totally agree, and I think too, in particular with Kisser, it's like people who have been working for such a long time towards this goal, and when you see them finally get to that finish line, it's so exciting, really for them and for our community as well, that has kind of like followed them on that journey. Well, there was a really cool one, and it's very close and near and dear to my heart. I was going to begin to say this earlier. Let's do kind of a small case study. Killjoy, right, so it's my sister's shop, and best proof that zero proof doesn't have to be boring, is that... I think that's what it was. When did you come up with that? Like how did you pitch that? Was that something you were there and you saw, and you're like, oh wow, this is really cool, and then you pitched it, and they're like, yes, do it, or when did you have the idea that that would be one of your picks? So I don't even remember how I originally got connected with her, but I've written about her and the shop a couple of times, and both the shop, right, as she was opening it, she's done some interesting events, she's done some events with the National Jewish Book Series, and obviously I've just been in the store and shop there, and I think what she's doing is so interesting and has been sort of transformative for the city. I told her this, but I host a big Passover Seder every year, and Passover is a holiday that has... I mean wine is actually part of the ceremony, it's a lot of drinking, and I have several friends who are sober who come to my Seder, and so usually there's sort of an alternative, and it was right as she was opening the shop, and so I went and I said, can you help me figure out how we can do an all alcohol-free Seder, and we had so much fun, because I bought an absurd amount of stuff, and then everyone kind of tasted it, and it felt like

08:47in some ways like the Seders of my youth, where there were so many empty bottles at the end of the night, but it was all non-alcoholic, and even the people who do drink didn't feel like they had sort of missed anything, and I just thought, okay, if the 10 of us have had this completely transformative experience, what other experiences are other people having, and the more I talk to people, I think she really is, or they I guess, are really changing the way that we talk about non-alcoholic drinks here, and that's, I mean that is a great example of something that I think is more than just a new shop, but really a different way to think about things. Well she's changing something that a lot of every single person associates entertainment and going out and having fun with alcohol, and really it's a ritual of cheersing and having something in your hand. You don't need the alcohol, I think people there's a perception that if I drink alcohol, loosen up, but really it's just having something in your hand and being social, it's a process, and I think that there's a lot of really good products out there, and it's like you said, everybody's there with empty bottles, and maybe there's not the regret the next day, and the phone calls, and the hangover, and you're like oh that was really fun. I think too it's helped really like bring a light on that there is a large demographic of people who are seeking that out, you know, for me I do drink, and when we are putting together like our cocktail menu at the restaurant, I maybe previously wouldn't have considered so much of like highlighting spirit free things until you know something like Killjoy comes along, I'm like oh wow there really is a big audience for this, and we need to be considering that when we're you know making new menus, and you know making additional options, make sure we're highlighting options for people besides just a can of coke. I think part of what Stephanie is doing, what Killjoy is doing is

10:54I mean a lot of the things they sell you can buy elsewhere, a lot of the things they sell I've ordered from elsewhere, but she is so fun right, and she just like has one of those fun infectious personalities, and so I think part of what she's doing is sort of saying hey this doesn't have to be a drag, whether it's something you're you know choosing to do all the time, whether you have addiction, or it's just something you're trying to moderate, she's not um making the experience of not drinking feel lesser, and I think that's really joyful. And there's a um there's I love her educational components to it, like it's a this isn't a Killjoy ad, I'm just saying like well I just think that what she's doing is there's an educational side, if you are sober curious, if you're just curious and you want to learn more, she's got books you can check out, there's like a fun little thing, so this process we're talking about, you go and this is why you see that, and then you pitch best proof, zero proof, doesn't have to be boring, and then they come back and say yes do that, yes that's exactly yeah, and then that's it, and then that's in, and that's the thing, yes okay, I mean then you know they edit it, so land the plane a little bit, right they edit it, they have questions, I have questions, blah blah blah, but yes that's how it works. Do you get more excited, do you get handed stories, do they call you and say hey look we need PR company said this new place is Schulman's is opening and we need you to go write an article about it? Yeah sure, people assign me things, yeah. Are those fun or do you find, is the fun part of what would you do finding your own story and jumping in and learning about it and then doing the investigative work and then writing about it, is it like a child to you? There's, it's both, yes, yes sometimes an editor will come to me whether it's Patrick at the scene or someone else and say hey we'd like you to write about this, and then sometimes I come up with ideas and pitch them, I sort of figure just my like philosophy as

13:00a reporter is if I'm curious about something, I think something is weird or interesting, probably somebody else does, and so that is kind of that digging for things and you know they say gathering string but looking at all these things and trying to find patterns and putting them together, so yeah that part is really fun and sometimes when you're or when I'm reporting something like that you know I might spend weeks or even months reporting something that's intensive and by the time you get to actually writing it that's that's kind of the easy part because you've spent so much time in the weeds for this, so yeah I do think that's really fun, but well one sometimes it's easy just to have someone say go do this and then you do it and you're done, but also that's all how I learn about things right, I mean I'm always looking for ideas, I'm always you know listening to people in restaurants or seeing what people talk about and so sometimes an editor will come to me with an idea that might be not go right about this, but hey have you been noticing this and then together we kind of refine the pitch and that's pretty interesting too and that those are the relationships with editors that I like where it feels like we're a team and we're working together to kind of make this story and kind of going back and forth about what's right and who we should talk to versus sort of I know some writers think about the editor relationship as sort of adversarial like a teacher correcting your work, but I don't I don't really think about it like that and those aren't the relationships that I like to have. Do you ever look at stories you write and wonder the effect of it's going to have on do you write anything that's I don't want to say salacious but where you're reporting on somebody or something that could be negatively looked upon by them and how do you feel like I

15:04mean because let's just say you have a friend and that friend does something or is something that you have to report on that doesn't necessarily that's not going to paint them in the best light but it's true but this is a story like do you feel like does this need to get out like why am I doing this story what's going to be the end result is it going to be because people want to read it and it's interesting and the public needs to know or is this a I know a bunch of people are going to read this and they're going to love it but it's going to hurt somebody do you ever have that dilemma I think all the time constantly as I'm reporting and writing like what what are the ramifications of what I'm writing why am I writing it why does someone want to read it yeah and what's going to happen when I'm writing it I'm very aware of I can't see my air quotes about the power that what we write has and it's kind of amazing to me sometimes how something that you might think is sort of small and throw away has an impact both like for good and not so yeah I'm very conscious of that and again it's sometimes it's not always the stories that you expect to be like that that are I had to write a very difficult story earlier this year about once upon a time in France the restaurant in East Nashville yeah oh yeah so there were allegations from some folks who had worked there about some health code violations and also some sexual harassment allegations is the big reddit thread yeah there was a big reddit thread there was a big facebook thread and so I probably spent about um six I don't know a month to six weeks reporting that and I honestly would have rather done anything else um I was very aware with every single interview I did and I don't remember off the top of my head but I think I talked to about

17:0612 former employees and I spent countless hours I went through every health department report they had had since they had been open and I was very aware of what it would mean to them I've been to their restaurants a lot I know them as a family I live in East Nashville my grandmother lived in France when she escaped Poland like I have this connection to the French community um also when Emma made this allegation I feel like this is part of the whole like we believe women and particularly it's very rare for a woman to be willing to use her name publicly and I felt like um we had a responsibility to report on that but every every second of reporting that I kept thinking about what the ramifications were for the aren'ts what the ramifications were for Emma um and as a student at Lipscomb which has some codes of conduct and sure so there's a lot of that you got to think about right so that was um that was very I was pretty miserable writing that actually do you ever have a situation where you would say to the person that you're you know interviewing or getting information from like hey are you sure that you want to share this with me or have you thought about what the potential fallout could be from this you know anything like that or is that kind of you know against the way that like reporting should be done because I don't know I didn't go to school to be a writer I kind of don't know the codes of how these things work yeah it is a weird kind of threading the needle I probably wouldn't ever say are you sure you want this to be public like or have you thought about the ramifications that's you know in that case for

19:10Emma or I used to do a lot of financial reporting and I was always surprised the personal financial details people would tell me and I sort of wanted to say are you sure you want to tell me this so I wouldn't necessarily say it like that but I do try to be very clear about you know we're on the record are you okay with me using your name you know like being very very direct and clear about what might happen without letting them make the decision with whoever they need to talk to about whether they want to do it I also try to be very clear with people about what what the process is particularly you know it's different if you're talking to a chef who's been interviewed for a thousand magazines or a college student who's never talked to the press before but some very try to be very clear about hey I'm interviewing all these people some off the record some on the record this is what off the record means this is what on background means like explaining all that and then also talking about hey not not everything will appear in print this is the timeline that sort of thing the other thing I want to go back to something Brandon you said about the other process that we were going through with that particular story it was we felt like it was a story that had to be told particularly because it was on reddit and it was on Facebook and a lot of people in the community were saying like is it safe to eat here whatever so we felt like we had to cover it but we also tried very hard like not to cover all the salacious details because there was also a lot of stuff that was gossip and a lot of stuff about who was cheating on who and you know all this stuff that you know so every interview I would say like I don't care about that like if it's somehow relevant to these six points that I would outline

21:15then fine we can talk about it but that's like I'm not here just to like dig up gossip yeah and you know that was our that particular article was hard to kind of but that's do you there's something seductive about that though I mean even in that moment and maybe it's because I'm shallow but when you're in that moment and they want to tell you that stuff do you ever be like wow that will be juicy for the article or this could be something and but you do you have to like fight back a feeling to say no that's not pertaining to the specific thing I'm looking for or does your brain start to go maybe that could I could use that because that's a um I mean certainly there I mean there's a moment where you're just like oh my gosh I cannot believe you just told me that um and you know I'm taking notes I'm always thinking about how things fit together but yeah in that particular for that particular article no I was really trying not to um I guess try not to make things worse like whatever you know it is I try to report on things responsibly and I do think you know we don't really have restaurant criticism per se in Nashville the way you do in some other cities so I do think we have a responsive I have a responsibility to to tell a big picture of restaurants in Nashville and food in Nashville so I don't always just want to write about places that are great I want to give people a full picture but I want to do it in a way that's not gossipy or salacious sure a way that's informative yes but I mean when people tell you the stuff that's like oh I can't believe you're telling me that that's always kind of fun just to have in your own personal memory bank sometimes and we're live we all love a good piece of gossip show when that happens it's like do we take that out like I don't people have there's

23:20been a couple of times that people have said things while we're interviewing them and I'm and and we kind of have that same reaction where I'm like are you sure you want to say that I do feel like there's been maybe a couple of times we've done somebody a solid and been like we need to take that out that's not going to sound great I have absolutely the worst poker face so sometimes what happens is somebody will tell me something and I just have this even if I'm just sitting there because a lot of reporting and doing an interview well I don't have to tell you how to interview but a lot of what you do is you're just sitting there quietly and seeing what the person says next but sometimes I know I have a look on my face that says I cannot believe that happened or you just told me that and then I can tell from their reaction then they think oh should I have not said that but I don't you know I try not to do gotcha sure we Brandon and I look at each other that's our like we're on a podcast you can't see what we're doing but when somebody says something crazy we're like but I'm terrible because I'm like tell me more about that I'm like I like I'm like holy shit they just said that like tell me give me into that and I'm I'm but then we'll leave and we'll call each other and be like hey we we can't you got to take that out sure and then what happened and then yeah I find myself I fall victim to that all the time because I like anybody else I'm like that sounds whoa that's juicy and people want to hear I mean I don't know I always constantly when I figure out who I want to have on the show I kind of read your articles and I read Chris's articles and I go oh that sounds really interesting let's learn more about that because you only have so much real estate and you have to pick out so many things I'm like I can talk to them for an hour about this and we can go into all the long form details of everything and I'm that's how I choose I think I think this would be interesting I want to hear that so when people get into that oh I shouldn't have said that thing I think that's

25:21the really interesting stuff but it's tough because I want to build community and I want to build it up that's kind of our goal but I still fall I and then I feel totally in bed and I go why why do I want to put that out there why do I feel like that's something people should hear because I want people to listen or because why that's gonna hurt them if I put this out there then I go I don't want to do that and I I take it out yeah do you feel like there's any um kind of gap in food reporting in Nashville or do you think that there's a story that's not being told or or something that you wish that that people would you know be more aware of or talking about I do think that we as a city don't don't do food criticism well and I and I think that's a gap um Lisa Donovan and I have talked about this a lot in that if food criticism is done well it elevates everyone and if we only have this environment where we're talking about the good places and I absolutely understand that because if you have limited space and limited pages and you want to you're trying to send people to the places that are good and so then the places that are not good kind of fall off the radar but um but if you do if you do that then um if you have some you know and I'm not a food critic but if you have good criticism I think it does give feedback that um elevates everyone you know this is a big topic of that um unreasonable hospitality book that they are so motivated by the feedback that they get that kind of makes them do better totally and and I think it's hard too when as restaurants the the criticism we're getting is mostly from Yelp and Google and a lot of times

27:23you just have to take that with a grain of salt it's it's very you know hey I came in and I'm mad that you don't have fried chicken on the menu because that's really what I wanted to eat today so I'm gonna write a bad review I don't know it's just it is it's hard when you think about Kay West back in the day I mean Kay West was a critic and she famously caught Mario's back in the day with their veal marsala veal piccata veal salt and bokeh I don't know what it was but she took the veal she was like this doesn't taste like veal it took it to a lab and it was actually pork and it was this veal gate thing you know where she called Mario's because they were serving pork and calling it veal and charging $50 a plate for it and she was like no this isn't it but like that's journal that's right figuring it out that's informing the public of buyer be with this is what people are doing and there's nobody holding anybody accountable and Frank Bruni for the New York Times is who you're referencing in the Will Gadara book Unreasonable Hospitality and I talked about it yesterday it's funny we talked about this yesterday is that he they they were a two-star restaurant and they were trying to get four stars and they got three stars and they were really working towards four and they've been practicing every single day and for two months and then Will took one day off to go on a date with his girlfriend and while they were like at a movie Frank Bruni came in the restaurant and he left the movie middle movie went home took a shower showed up at the restaurant by the time he got his salads and then continuous service like that's how important food critics can be and it's a major deal I mean it motivates every person I mean that is the the north star you want that review that's the but it's as a restaurateur myself and I know you feel this there's no way to really get the best of Nashville to win a best of Nashville might be the closest thing we have to really a unaccepted people recognize our hard work I mean I think that's a recognition thing and there's not really anything out there that says that in Nashville on a consistent basis and it does feel

29:25great to be recognized by the writers because you know the the readers is just a who has the best Instagram following or sent out the most email blasts or whatever most of the time not in every case certainly but you know a lot of the like I love daddy's dogs gets most romantic restaurant like that's just that's amazing I love those guys and that's just hilarious and so fun but you know to get that that writers recognition is is really makes you feel great it is special when you write about a restaurant do you feel do you feel that responsibility do you feel a responsibility that I'm writing something great about them or do you feel like you're critical do you feel like you have a little bit of that no I absolutely feel that responsibility I do try to be critical and fair the other thing that I feel a real responsibility for is you know not everything is for me not everything is for everyone so I really try to think about if something doesn't work for me I mean I bring different people with me to eat so because there's some things I don't eat bring someone else to eat that like someone with kids someone without kids like try to think I really try to have gone somewhere multiple times before I write about it because it's not I don't think it's fair if someone just has a great day or a terrible day like you need to see some consistency I know this has come up relatively recently with some coverage in the Tennessean I don't think it's fair to cover a restaurant really early like in the first week or two or a month even and I know they need that sort of I know it's catch-22 because they kind of need that early press to get people in there so in that case you know we might write about something like I wrote about Shulman's opening but it's not really you know a review because service was poor and they didn't have this ready like you're not saying

31:25that stuff you're saying hey it's open because nobody knows like you don't know anything those first weeks and so I don't think that's fair so I try to think about that yeah well those are all those are all valid things you've got to look at we just opened Chagos you know less than a month ago do you feel like you're review ready yeah I mean I feel solid now but when you first open I mean Chris Chamberlain came in to our friends and family and we talked about it on their best in Nashville episode last week that he was like well the alarm went off five times like the smoke alarm went off but like we were figuring out the sensitivity of the smoke alarm we doubled the size of the kitchen and the hoods and the power of the fan and like that kind of stuff we're still figuring out and if there's a critic in there that day your first day and the smoke alarm goes off and there's a little strobe light happening for half of your meal you're like what is this like that's we got to work through those kinks right that's all fixed now but that's friends and family like no one should think friends and family is real right well and and he essentially said that like you know it was a lovely meal and everything was great thank you for inviting me he lives right behind the restaurants I mean it was a come on down we'd love to have you come by and it was great I think that's another thing that Chris and I try to do and try to think about is well obviously I'll cover anything in the city or suburbs we do sort of have areas of expertise you know sometimes he'll message me and say hey what's going on in this East Nashville thing because that's the side of town I live in if anything beer related comes in I send it to him because yeah I could write it but he's you know this is his area of expertise and so I think that works I mean I think that's true right in any industry with anything but the more you kind of figure out where your depth of knowledge is the better is there like a writer's poker night you said you know a good poker face but like do you guys hang out do you guys all meet at lakeside lounge and like you and Chris and I don't know K West or do you guys all hang out

33:30and kind of have a hey look let's just shoot the shit and and off the record let's vent about whatever or talk do you have like a support group for writers I mean if there's that group I'm not invited to that group but there are there are some groups there is a group sort of an informal group of women in media women writers who get together maybe twice a year or quarterly that's interesting and that has been super interesting to see how that group has changed since as the city has changed I moved I went here I came here originally go to Vanderbilt graduated left lived a bunch of places lived in Chicago for a long time and moved back in 2007 and that was one of the things that I missed when I moved back I mean in Chicago I had did have that group of journalist friends when I went to journalism school went to grad school there so I did have this very intense kind of journalism circle and lots of people who we would get together for lunch and who I would call and say I have no idea how to report this or get this piece of information and when I first moved back I felt like I didn't have that community because it's just a different city and it doesn't feel like that anymore there's plenty there there is sort of that peer group now oh good which I like well this could transition to your initial kind of wanted to have conversation around the me too movement and yeah I transition to that from well yeah something I was kind of thinking about because I feel like there's always these over the years not with you specifically but I feel like I hear about oh this writer is working on this story or this writer is working on that story and then the story never seems to materialize for whatever reason but you know it's probably just gossip it seems like there was so much attention and conversation around restaurant culture changing in particular around the me too movement and then I think as we moved into the covid years

35:32and we talked about you know workplaces being more equitable and and better treatment of employees and and that sort of thing do you feel like that conversation has has died down do you feel like the the culture has really shifted do you think that there's still a lot of problems left to address what what are you hearing and observing this is definitely one of those things that I'd probably give you a different answer depending on the day because some days I do feel like things are better and even the fact that we can have this conversation I think means things are better that people are willing to talk about things but then some days it does the stories I hear feel like nothing has changed and it's really it's depressing and it's does feel sort of insurmountable so many times I'll write an article about a restaurant and then I get these sort of back channel messages where people say why'd you write about that guy he's such a jackass this happened this happened this happened and you know I feel terrible one I don't know if any of that is true although I generally think people don't reach out about that if it's if there isn't something there to like I can't know those things that people don't tell me and then it's sort of hard to figure out how to move forward with that is it is it a story is it something the public needs to know but then also my I always ask you know I mean anyone is welcome to reach out to me about that and anything is off the record unless they don't want it to be but I'll always ask for follow-up and then I also say when I get those sorts of messages who should I be writing about who you know are not the jackasses who are the places that are really taking this seriously and that's also sort of depressing because it's not like that's not a very long list that consistently people come to me you know you and Tony come up a lot oh thank you I'm on that list

37:34I really appreciate that Julia and Henrietta Redd like Claire a dozen there are people who come up saying like this is a great place to work Bill Miller's places you know people come to me a lot and talk about how great those places are to work for I mean he is I think 600 employees at this point and you know nudies shulmans the Sinatra place house of cards and rank and file servers will tell me he will walk in and know their name that's so nice to hear I think especially for that downtown scene because I feel like what of course sucks up so much of the energy around there is the the Steve Smith of it all you know which is I mean come on how do you not that's a that's a shiny story I mean that's the easy story because the guy and he wants you to write that story oh yeah I mean he he's I mean I spend way too much time thinking about Steve Smith I'm so sorry no that's that's all right but I you know I wrote that story a story earlier this summer or this summer about some of the problems that the musicians at the Steve Smith venues are having getting paid and like to me that is that's a perfect example of a story that is not gossip is not I mean they're definitely salacious crazy parts of it but to me like that's the essence of Nashville is these musicians and if they're being told I mean I think a lot of us don't know like they're being told what they can play like specifically what songs they can play what they can't play a lot of them there's no way even for the people who are in those bars to like know what the band's name is or where

39:35else they can see them play so it's not really advancing their their career the way that you might think and then they aren't getting paid or they're getting paid even worse than we all imagine like that is something that's super relevant to Nashville and that's that's super frustrating to me to figure out how yeah how you report on that and how as a city we figure out how to reckon with that and also like I'm also aware that you know Steve Smith did take tootsies and he did save it like that that's a fact um and a lot of the good parts of downtown wouldn't exist either that's very true I either to his credit or discredit depending on what your opinion is on the situation you know kind of create helped to create broadway what it is now with all the tourism and you know it's Shawneke set empty forever and that place was a just a what's Shawneke exactly it was a old Irish bar that's where honky tonk central is I mean it was Shawneke I remember going to Shawneke's do you remember this yeah and then it closed and that whole honky tonk central was just empty for god like 10 years I mean it was just an empty building right there in the corner of I think fourth and broad right I think it was still empty when I moved here but then all of a sudden he made it honky tonk central and man the life that that brought to me what a prime spot I mean it just sat empty and now I mean it's a it's a it was a huge turning point for that whole broadway scene I mean when I was at Vanderbilt my roommate worked at a bookstore called rare foreign and more on second avenue I know that probably sounds weird to people that there was a bookstore on second avenue but true story there were art galleries and bookstores and we used to go pick her up after work because we didn't want her to leave work alone at whatever time that was

41:41eight o'clock on a Friday night on second avenue like we didn't think that was safe and so like to see that complete and totaled like turnover seven times or whatever since then it does sort of make your head spin and it's you know I I understand why there are so many frustrations about Nashville today I definitely have them myself but like I'd rather live somewhere where people want to go than where people want to leave so I do think as much as I am frustrated by Steve Smith and I didn't mean to like get into talking about him so much you know he does also deserve some credit I don't disagree with you there and you know some people might argue that it's still not that safe to be a woman by yourself at eight o'clock on a Friday night on second avenue or Broadway I in 2019 was I'm sure I've talked about this on the show before I was hosted a bachelorette party for a friend and we did the whole downtown Broadway thing and I had not been on Broadway on a weekend night at that hour and it was quite frankly truly shocking to me the way that that men were acting I do think that has cycled a little bit I do think there was a period and I don't know what that magic sweet spot was but 2011 2012 where there was this energy and there were a lot of it felt exciting to go down to Broadway and there was all this music and we were you know it's city or whatever but it did also feel safe I agree with you I remember like my in-laws coming in town and taking you know my husband's parents out on a weekend night to Broadway now I would never do that in a million years I probably wouldn't take them there after like 3 p.m. right it is different I mean it is different and there was always and I don't want to demonize the alcohol or the drinking that was always there but it is different there weren't people who would you know throw up on your shoes at 3 p.m.

43:45it did feel like you could walk through the street without being harassed and it's it's really upsetting to to have that environment I think it seems that oh I'm sorry Brandon I don't know I was just gonna say it seems that you know kind of we were talking about the culture earlier with like me too movement and all of these things has the culture really shifted well you know it's maybe not just within the restaurant world just talking about kind of the culture of young people the culture of young men you know we seem to I think there's a perception that Gen Z the younger generation has all these kind of you know shifting ideals from maybe when when we were all in our 20s but has it really changed that much if that's the behavior that you know is going on in the weekends let's take a short break to hear a quick word from our sponsors hey guys we are supported by Sharpier's Bakery and we've been supported by Sharpier's Bakery for the last year and I tell you I couldn't be more proud of this partnership guys they're a locally owned and operated bakery right here in Nashville for the last 36 years yes they deliver fresh baked bread daily to your restaurant's back door and man is it good you want to know what kind of bread they make go check them out at Sharpier's Bakery dot com that's C-H-A-R-P-I-E-R-S Bakery dot com so they have over 200 types of bread and if you're wondering well hey look it's a special recipe that I like to use that you know we bake it in our house and it's just it's a kind of a pain but we we like to do it they can take your recipe and make that bread for you without any of the hassle the mess the labor they'll just deliver right to your door every single day it is freshly baked they love to give you a tour of their facility give Erin Mosso a call her number is 615-319-6453 you should do it now what chefs want story is incredibly unique the owner Ron Trenier met with a bunch of chefs in Louisville back in the early 2000s and asked them one simple

45:48question what do you want and the chefs they responded emphatically we want deliveries on Sunday we want to be able to split any item that you sell we want a frictionless experience where we feel like we're being served and so you know what he did something crazy he did just that so what chefs want is not only a company that's delivering fresh produce fresh seafood fresh custom cut meats specialty items dairy gourmet all of that seven days a week they also offer 24 seven customer support you want to call you want to text you want to email you can talk to somebody 24 seven get your delivery seven days a week an amazing selection of products that is what chefs want so if you ever wonder why do they call it that that's your reason check them out at what chefs want.com we are supported by Robbins Insurance a local insurance agency providing customized insurance policies sound guidance and attentive service Robbins Insurance is the go-to agency for hospitality professionals in Nashville listen Robbins knows how hard industry professionals work every single day they also know how devastating accidents can be be it a grease fire that damages the kitchen a severe storm that cuts off power or a customer slip and fall incident both the extensive experience and the savvy to create a policy that protects your business from accidents like those you can rest easy knowing that the work you've put in will not be for nothing visit Robbins website at robbinsins.com to request a consultation or call Matthew Clements directly his number is 863-409-9372 protection you can trust that's Robbins. I think there's a natural progression that happened in Nashville and it's almost like national geographic if you think about just kernel well because when I used to drive uber you know I don't know 10 years ago was 2016

47:53maybe eight seven eight years ago when it first started uber was kind of a thing and I was like this sounds fun I get to go drive people around and my dad is retired and he would do it and I was like he'd tell me all these stories and I was like that sounds like a good time and I had a blast but people would get in your car from Milwaukee and they would go why are there so many bachelorettes here I don't understand why and I and so I thought about that and I went well it's a safe place there's like 50 bars if you think every floor is a bar like within five blocks there's free cover charge for everybody you get to get dressed up in cowboy boots and it's a fun thing you can you can as a bachelorette party you can go into 20 bars and everywhere you go somebody's buying you drinks and it's just it was fun you get on stage and Mandy's getting married and they wear their outfits and they go and people are like it's funny because I don't see any bachelor parties and I was like oh no no there and I think as Nashville gained notoriety for bachelorette parties I think all of a sudden the perception came and and transpertainment and I'm gonna be on the back of a bus just going wild and people was like what happens if it rains like a rain is like gasoline falling from the sky because now they're wet dancing and drunk on a bus and it's like a white snake video I mean it just it changes and I think the perception of Nashville went from this is a fun safe place to be to all of a sudden this is this is a place where you're going to go get blackout drunk and it's socially acceptable and I think when that happened when you have all these young women showing up it's like the sharks came like you know it's like all of a sudden where are the men well the men are there they don't dress up all together but when when the national news is this is where all the young single women go to party and get wasted all of a sudden it's like boom now this the all these men have shown up and this is like a hunting ground and all of a sudden it became this it's socially acceptable to get blackout drunk and there's all these women and it's just now it's just gotten out of control or it has it is I don't know I don't go down there I'm making full assumptions based around several

49:58years ago but it's almost like this natural progression of oh this is where the women are now the men are here and now it's just kind of a napalm well a number of restaurant owners in that sort of greater downtown area have talked to me about how they see the shift that their clientele went from someone who maybe came in for a convention and was willing to pay $15 for a couple of drinks and now it's people who are looking for the opportunity to drink the most for the least amount of money and so that's shifted the way these businesses you know what they can sell and it is I mean it's a perceptible shift and I think we have to just you know make some decisions about as a city about if this is what we want I don't know that I really see anything changing to be honest with you I I do think that you know certainly we could see some crime statistics change some some safety improvements with the the new precinct that's going on broadway I think that that's a really positive change but in terms of like the party culture I don't know that really I think that it just kind of is what it is at this point I think a new football stadium is going to add a ton of fuel to that too I mean just going to add more places and more people it's funny I went to a Titans game I went to the Bengals game a couple weeks ago and it's interesting I don't know if I've said this on the show before but it was half I mean not half I mean there was a ton of Bengals fans there every time we go to a Titans game there's so many fans from the other team and I went to the opening game in Indianapolis it was Indianapolis Colts and the Jaguars 99 percent of people in that stadium were wearing a dark blue color there was seven Jaguars fans in the building it was crazy then you go to a Nashville or you go to a Titans game and it's like 50 50 almost and then you go oh well I don't think

51:59that's because the Titans don't have the fans I think that's because everybody wants to go to Nashville nobody wants to go to Indianapolis for the weekend they want to come to Nashville like their team's playing in Nashville it's like oh let's make a weekend out of it and that's I think that's unique about us and that's only going to increase oh yeah do you remember that year I don't know 20 I don't know 2008 2009 the Bears played oh yes I do remember it was actually later it was like 2014 maybe it was a solid 80 percent Bears fans and they the Bears I mean Paradise Park was still open oh yes and I was there after the game like there was not beer left yes on Broadway because the Bears fans that is so funny I remember that right there was hurricane dicka there was actually no beer left yes it was great I do remember that specifically I remember we went to Paradise Park and all they had left was Tall Boys of Icehouse think about the variety of beers that were served at Paradise Park and in what quantity and all they had left was Tall Boys of Icehouse I mean it's it was it was really it was it was a wild weekend I don't know if that says more about the Bears the quality of Icehouse both but I think there are things that we could do as a city to make to make a difference and make it a safer place and make it a place where you can go have fun but the other thing is like your your mission is to drink as much as possible for as little money as possible then you're not even getting you I mean you could do that anywhere like you're not even really getting that Nashville experience of what makes Broadway special about what makes Nashville special I don't think people care yeah well some people care some people care but I don't think that the majority of that demographic cares

54:02no what do you think the goal is of most people when they come to Nashville and they because I would drive people again back to my uber experience you drive people and I'm like where did you guys go eat and like oh we went to Jack's barbecue we went to the place and everywhere they went was on Broadway you're like did you go outside of Broadway like no man we're staying there we just been on Broadway every night and you're like but Nashville had so many other amazing things you can do while you're here and I go have you been to the Parthenon like what's that you're like it's right here there's a full-scale replica of the Parthenon and if you go inside I mean you wrote you wrote a article about the um the art gallery inside and how much how much cool things are at the Parthenon is not just the outside of it like that's just a tiny thing that's it's not a tiny thing but it's right there it's not even far from downtown that you could experience here in Nashville so people just don't care I also write these guide books a guidebook to Nashville a guidebook to Tennessee one that goes from here to New Orleans down the natchez trace so I write a lot about what tourists do or I think they should do and I try to balance that between okay what are the things that people expect are going to be in this book like how broadway focused should it be and how much is my job to help people expand their experience and you know the fact that we don't have the best public transportation system is not helpful for this but um so I am in some sort of different online groups where visitors are talking about what they do and where they go and um I'm fascinated by how many people stay at the jury hotel downtown because they have free breakfast and free drinks and free afternoon whatever food and so people are eating there because it's free again air quotes because that's part of the hotel price but then they eat there and then they go to the

56:04to the honky tonks and they're they're not even going to a restaurant I mean it's not just that they're not they're only going to broadway restaurants they're not going to a restaurant I think it's hard for people like us to conceive of but there's a lot of people that travel and don't care about food I couldn't imagine it's every trip I take is based around what am I going to eat same but there's a lot of people that just don't care they'll go to McDonald's that's a true story I just feel like they're the culture has shifted from Nashville's a really great city to this is a place we can go get fucking wasted and try and hook up I mean well and it's not just tourists too though I mean I there's a lot of young people that work for me that are on broadway on the weekends after work you know it's where it's like the pick up place for people under 30 that seems to be that that to me it seems like that's just a thing I don't know yeah I don't know how to change it I don't know if we need to change it I just don't you know there's this whole thing on TikTok of women who will go on TikTok I've seen quite a few of these women who will go on TikTok and say hey if your husband was at a bachelor party and his in Nashville this weekend and his name is Steve and you live in San Antonio here's what he was up to and hitting on my friend and doing this and doing that DM me let's make this go viral and we are gonna like girl code tell you what's up I've seen a lot of these and there's guys getting busted oh my gosh I have not seen those I have I'll send you some it's an interesting corner of TikTok also stays in Nashville doesn't stay in Nashville also Steve is using his real name okay wow I have I don't know I have all these high hopes for

58:05downtown when Fifth and Broad was opening and the assembly food hall and the African American music museum I thought you know this was gonna be so great because we're gonna have this culture and so many locally owned restaurants right and you know I just thought that this was really gonna help really gonna help diversify people's experiences if they don't leave Broadway but I'm not sure that's happened the way I envisioned it if I am inclined to go down there that is where I would go just this past weekend we were meeting a friend for lunch and trying to decide where to go and Tony suggested oh let's go to Boqueria we love Boqueria but I'm like I don't want to go downtown on a Sunday afternoon so before that Titans game we went to assembly food hall and took my kid you know I'm with an eight-year-old right where am I gonna go what honk tonk so simple is a great option because there's a lot of restaurants there's ice cream there's all the stuff you can take a kid up there and we can eat then we walked over to the game it was a lot of fun I mean it was a great experience if you're going with somebody younger right it's great and it is great that there are so many locally owned businesses and business restaurants that are representative of other parts of the city um and I kind of was hoping it would almost be a gateway to you know people go there and then like oh well if I like that why don't I go check out these other places on nolensville pike but that's not really a thing I don't think well we're almost at the hour mark okay we are I mean you see how fast this goes you're like man like we sat down five minutes ago but we're at 54 minutes well I just one quick thing that I wanted to make sure that we did talk about is Margaret you were telling me before the show started today about some new stuff that you became aware of that's happening with the sexual assault center so kind of to you know put a little end cap here on our discussion I'd love to hear about that so there was a meeting I went to last night with the sexual assault center

01:00:09and metro about their safe bar program which you all have talked about before which is this training program to help restaurants and bars train their staff to see the signs of sexual assault and also diffuse things before they happen and it's free program and the I'm probably going to get this name wrong but the women's caucus of the metro city council has allocated funding to sort of help expand safe bar and it was pretty inspiring to be at this meeting last night you know the health department was talking about ways they could help spread the word and you know there are these coasters that change color if a drink has been spiked and so they were asked talking about well maybe the coasters could just be distributed by the health department workers who are going to all these rest you know they have to go to every restaurant and bar anyway and so like how great is that and then talking about ways that this program can not only help the staff of restaurants and bars to rep to see those signs of assault among customers but also start talking about the ways that this training could help the staff internally which I thought was just I mean one needed but really inspiring and the other thing that Rachel Friedman talked about a little bit was how they can provide some training both for journalists and for hospitality workers on how to deal with some of the trauma that they hear about because and it is really hard to listen to those stories and people who do it professionally have some tools that you know some of the rest of us don't so those all feel like pretty tangible affordable things that we can sort of do to start change I mean any of the kinds of

01:02:16change that we've been talking about today you know it's going to be incremental none of us are going to wake up tomorrow and have you know a completely different broadway or a completely different transit system or different justice system I mean none of that happens overnight but I do I am pretty optimistic that there are lots of things that we can do to to see incremental change I want to give a plug because I think that that's all amazing stuff and I love what the sexual assault center is doing but we learned about the sexual assault center from Josh Buckley over at Fat Bottom Brewing with the nation's brewing company and he hooked us up with Lorraine and Jack over there and they're amazing but they as a brewery and as a company support the sexual assault center they created a beer called Hope Pilsner and I don't know if they're still doing the Hope Pilsner and what I just looked up said in April they were donating a hundred percent of net proceeds of the Hope Pilsner to the sexual assault center since 1978 the sexual assault center has helped provide healing for 35 000 people affected by sexual abuse and violence across middle Tennessee regardless of the ability to pay or offer statewide training and prevention programs so they're doing amazing things but I want to give a shout out to the nation's brewing and Fat Bottom Brewery for being a beer company to really step up and help fund all of this stuff and they they're doing great things over there and love what they're doing they're they're a new sponsor for us so I wanted to give a shout out to what they're doing and that's one of the reasons why I approached them for sponsorship was that I think it's a good natural fit for a local company who's supporting local initiatives like this and they also own Lucky Duck on Gallatin in East Nashville which is where this meeting was last night so they the nation's brewing owns Lucky Duck Fat Bottom Fat Bottom yeah or they have the same I don't know if they own it ownership structure

01:04:18similar partners but so they hosted this meeting last night that's awesome see I mean and Teddy's Tavern and Teddy's Tavern and the taproom over there but you know it's funny because I told him I said well do you mean to promote I don't really do restaurant promotion but if he's like no we we just it's just a vessel for our our beer we want you to go support the restaurants that are serving our beer and I was like that's really cool that's cool they're amazing um what did you want it do you think anything else you want to talk about I know I don't know what your time looks like but I want to be respectful of it we have talked about so many of the things that I wanted to talk about I guess I didn't really come in with an agenda but I really appreciate both of you asking me to be here and also you know being open to I think you have a really big vision of what the hospitality a really inclusive big vision of what the hospitality community is like here um and I think that's that's good for all of us um you know what Caroline you and I talked about this a little bit I one of the things that I guess I am concerned about as as Nashville continues to have this reputation and we get all these kind of national names coming into the city which is great and they make great food and it sort of raises our culinary profile but I worry sometimes about that the it's harder for the local businesses to get seen I mean obviously these national brands or regional brands come in and they have more marketing money so of course they get more coverage and so I think what you all are doing to help sort of allow these locally owned businesses to tell their stories is super important thank you that means a lot for you to say that I mean because that that is our mission we want to elevate locally owned and operated businesses and for people to learn about them and the story behind them and people want to support them seeing that hey look I'm a person we talked about

01:06:21Caroline and Tony are like the definition they're a mom and pop they they're there all the time and they're running this building and they're thinking of new ideas and they support their community and they're just well that's what makes communities though I feel like we talk about me too much on the show thank you that's an easy example right here there's so many there's so many and we're very lucky to have writers like you who are helping to elevate those those people in those stories as well so thank you thanks but I also think that the more people understand see that there are people the less I mean obviously you're always going to have angry people on the internet but the the less you're going to have those sorts of complaints that you were talking about on Yelp and more of people coming to you and saying hey this happened yesterday it was interesting in one of these other visitors groups on the internet I was talking about the one where everyone stays at the jewelry someone posted this week asking how hard it was to sneak a flask into the um honky-tonks on Broadway because they didn't want to pay for all the drinks they wanted to uh drink and I was pleasantly surprised and this never happens in that group and rarely happens on the internet but kind of people laid into this person and said like do you not understand what it takes to run a business they have to pay rent they have to blah blah blah and um I mean there was a little bit of well those businesses on Broadway are making a lot of money and the drinks are expensive but for the most part there was a lot of defending the businesses the businesses and I was so pleasantly surprised that's nice to hear um you know I mean good stuff the answer was pre-game and then don't drink as much to the bar but whatever um I was pretty pleasantly surprised by that I love that well Margaret thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be here and come down here and sit with us in studio this is it's been a lot of fun getting to know you a little

01:08:21bit better thanks to both of you I um don't come because I'm in east Nashville don't come to this neighborhood that much but um I worked at Freedman's army navy as my one of my college jobs so it's always fun to like come down nice uh down a memory lane nice and we are right here where we're I call it Hillsborough village would you call this Hillsborough village sure ish we're right across street from the Freedman's right there in the map co I kind of think is of Blair as the end of Hillsborough village I don't know if I'm right right on the border yeah I would say that you know I would walk here from Vanderbilt and this was like kind of I think I don't know wouldn't have crossed Blair to walk it's like once you cross 440 you're getting into Green Hills right yeah I think this I think so I think it's fair yeah oh we love that you're here well thank you so much this was a lot of fun and um look forward to reading more of your stories and um I'll always love reading your stories and um we will talk to you soon okay I love seeing you at cheekwood and all the places throughout the holidays it's always fun we'll see you later thanks big thank you to Margaret Litman for joining us on the show today and thank you again to you the listener hope that you enjoyed that episode and we'll be bringing you more before we take our holiday break hope that you guys are being safe out there and uh love you guys bye