Sarah Gavigan

00:00Welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio, the tastiest hour of talk in Music City. Now here's your host, Brandon Styll. Hello Music City. Welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio. My name is Brandon Styll and I am your host. Today is a special day. Why? Because today is my birthday and I'm excited to be able to share this show with you today. Today we are talking with Ms. Sarah Gavigan of Otaku Ramen. Also she had the little octopus here in town and she talks about, in this interview, mistakes that she made there and what she learned from this experience. Really good interview.

01:00We go into a lot of detail on some delivery topics later on in the interview. We'll listen to the whole thing. We have a great conversation deep into it. Maybe even announce a future pop-up that we are going to collaborate on. So lots of fun stuff going on there. But first, I got to tell you a story. So Valentine's Day, we all know, was a Sunday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday going into it was really busy, obviously working in restaurants, nobody got time to go out. So I was trying to plan something that would be really fun for me to take my wife to go do and since it is my birthday, we went out last night and we went to Josephine for dinner and it was outstanding from the moment we walked in the door to the moment we left. Just an amazing, amazing job. Karen and Andy Little have got something really good going on over there. The clams casino pasta was just decadent. The beef tongue, amazing. The crab dip to the, I had schnitzel, my wife had scallops.

02:03It was just an amazing meal. Service was out of control, just great. But the real cherry for the night, the fun deal was we were going to have a staycation. Right? So I guess the idea is you go stay in a hotel and it's fun, you get away. My parents were watching the kids for the night and it was a lot of fun. So we had dinner, we went and checked in, we stayed at the Hermitage Hotel. My good friend Dee Patel hooked us up with a little romance package. We got to the room and there was like chocolate covered strawberries. It was super cool, such an amazing hotel. You walk into the Hermitage Hotel and it is just jaw dropping, it's just beautiful. We check in, we go to the room. It's amazing, it's quiet because we don't have children. We're like, holy shit, what do we do? Like this, we're in a hotel room, this is great. And then we turned on the TV to watch, we're watching the show Billions right now. So we turn on, we're watching the show Billions and it's like 11.30, we're laying in bed and I'm a giant, we have a really big bed, but we're laying in bed and I'm looking at her and I'm like, what are we doing?

03:16She goes, I don't know. I go, are you tired? She said, no, I'm not tired. And then there's sirens, you know, because you're downtown, so sirens are going by. And I started cracking up and I went, I think that staycations are for drinkers because it's widely documented that I don't drink. And since I don't drink, my wife doesn't drink when I'm around, which is not like, she doesn't have to do that, but she's amazing like that. And so we go to dinner, nothing to drink. I said, I think staycations are like, if you go downtown and you drink a lot, you don't have to drive home. You can just go stay in a hotel and then you don't care that you're not in your own bed and you don't have your own pillow and there's sirens going on because you just go to sleep. Like you just do that. So last night, 11.52, I finally looked at her and I go, we have this house that's 20 minutes away that we never sleep in when there's nobody else in the house. Like what if we just go there? I'd rather sleep in my own bed. We're in this little room that's a hotel room.

04:19I'm like, why are we here? So we did, we grabbed our stuff and we snuck out at like 11.57, walked in the door at 12.25 of our own home and we're in bed at 12.45. We woke up this morning, didn't have to unpack, didn't have to do anything. We were already home. We made our coffee and we went for a hike. It was amazing. But are we crazy people? That's what I'm getting at here, folks. Like because you, like is staycation something for the drinkers? Is that a thing? Because we could drive. We're not, we're fine. That was my thought. So there's my thought to you. If you see this video or you see this podcast, you're listening to it, go to our Instagram, go to our page. Let me know, are you, do you think I'm crazy? Because we're in this beautiful hotel room and I was like, I just don't want to wake up here. We could be in our own bed. Let's go. So yes. So anyway, we do, uh, we do have amazing show today. We have an amazing on brand segment coming at you right now.

05:19So Jason Ellis from super source, who's an amazing supporter of this show, you know, he teaches me stuff every single week. We talk every week about just stuff in the dish world because I'm trying to learn more about how to manage that whole side of everything and just become more knowledgeable, uh, for safety reasons. So today my question to Jason Ellis is bottles. There's so many squirt bottles and bottles all over the place that sometimes are labeled. Ours are all labeled perfectly. They're beautiful. They all look amazing because we have super source, but I asked Jason, tell me what's going on with the bottle. Hey, thanks Brandon. That's a great question. Yeah, labels are super important in what we do in our business because we want to keep our employees safe and we also want to keep our guests safe, um, from all of our chemicals, from our spray bottles to our concentrated products in the gallons, five gallon pails, everything has a label on it. Um, and on each and every label, it says everything, what the product will do, how to use it.

06:24Um, it's got the active ingredients on it. It also has a QR code on here that you can actually scan to get your MSDS sheets. Why are MSDS sheets important? You are required by the health department to have them on hand in case somebody, staff or a guest in your restaurant gets injured by any of the chemicals for whatever reason. And with just having this QR code on here, you're able to put it on your phone, pull up your SDS sheet and get that information real time. In addition to, there is a 1-800 number on here that you can call, uh, so you can get assistance if you needed to make a phone call that way as well. So safety is extremely important. I've been in so many restaurants where they pick up a spray bottle and it's got a colored liquid in it. We don't know what it is. I've asked the server. I'll ask the manager, Hey, what's in this product? I don't know. Somebody mixed it up. Well, that's dangerous. If a kid picks up the bottle, uh, off the table or something like that and plays with it, sprays it, and it could be a degreaser or an acid, um, there's a lot of safety hazards that involved in that.

07:25One of the big things that we do at SuperSource and that I do is we go around and gather all of your spray bottles and fill them up for you. Make sure everything is labeled. If you request more spray bottles, we don't bring them in unlabeled. Every single spray bottle you get from us has a label on it because we want to make sure your staff is safe. We want to make sure your operation has the complete program. In that program, it's safety and customer focus and commitment to you. So it's one less thing for you to have to worry about, one less thing your managers have to worry about, and one less thing to keep your operation safe. Thank you, Jason Ellis. That was amazing. What great, great stuff. Um, see that guys, that's the feedback. That's the kind of stuff you can't learn anywhere else. That's the, that's the feedback you get from Jason Ellis and he could do this for you any given time. If you, uh, if he was your dish, machine and chemical guy, he cares, he, I tell you, he, I call him the dentist because he tries to fix things proactively. He doesn't want you to have to need him. He wants to figure it out, to keep you going all the time.

08:26He's just the best. Uh, SuperSource.com or check them out, go to our website at NashvilleRestaurantRadio.com. Hit the sponsors tab, go find SuperSource and he will give you a deal. Just call him to have him come out and check out your stuff. So let's jump right in. This is a long interview today with Ms. Sarah Gavigan, but it is a lot of fun. I hope that you enjoy. We're very, very excited today to welcome in Sarah Gavigan. She's the owner of Otaku Ramen. Welcome to Nashville Restaurant Radio. Thanks. Glad to be here. You know, it's funny because it's Nashville Restaurant Radio and you own a restaurant and I haven't had you on the show yet. So this is very fitting. I'm so excited to just, just have you here. The most, I think the most important question we can ask anybody right now is how are you? You doing okay? Everything? How are you? Okay. I mean, we, we, we've been very fortunate for a handful of reasons. Um, I got COVID, um, on March 11th of last year.

09:26Oh, wow. And so I got that out of the way real quick. And, um, that, that whole time period, um, we were out of town, the tornado. And then when I caught COVID, um, we had gone out of town for spring break with our daughter. And um, it was that those beginning stages were absolutely terrifying. Once we settled into the new reality, um, I looked at my husband and I said, you know, we got to have a strategy here. Are we going to, because this is going to go on for a long time. We knew that, um, is our strategy going to be to make money or is our strategy going to be not to lose money? And that strategy is different for everyone based on the type of restaurant that you have, the type of service that you provide and what your food is. We were, um, really set up for this.

10:27Um, we already had a very flush to go system and, um, we understood the mechanics of to go and that gave us a huge head start into this. You mentioned that you knew how you knew this was going to last a long time. How did you know? How did, when everybody's thinking we're going to close for two weeks, cause it was a, it was a year ago, March 12th, the 13th, I think it was that we actually, they actually said we're going to close. And you said we knew where it was going to take a long time. Was it because you had COVID and you knew how bad it was? How did you know? Oh yeah, that was part of it. I mean, um, I, I didn't have to go to the hospital, but I was close. Um, and I had a, I had, I think the very first European strain, I got it on a ski mountain. So that, you know, a lot of people come from Mexico and from, um, Europe to Colorado. The very first case for, in Mexico came from Vail, Colorado. Really? Is that where you were? Yeah.

11:28And they, people flying back and forth on private jets back to Mexico city. And you know, for me, I'm not saying I'm a soothsayer, I'm just a realist. And um, it was, it was quite obvious that this was not going to vanish overnight and that this was way outside the scope of what, uh, the human race was capable of dealing with at the moment. And um, it also was pretty apparent to me that whatever strict, um, you know, when you travel in Asia, which we do a lot, um, everyone wears masks, everyone. And I can remember being like, why would you do that? I wouldn't want to do that. Well, of course now we get why, but you know, we don't live in a compliant society. We live in a selfish society. So it was very obvious to see that no one was going to be compliant and that this was going to be an uphill battle. So yeah, so I, that those are logical signs that would state that, you know, the people in the world that don't want to wear a mask, I think from day one, uh, I didn't want to wear a mask.

12:33I remember going into the ACE hardware store, my wife was like, you're wearing a mask. And I walked into ACE hardware. It was around St. Patrick's day and I put a mask on it. And they were looking at me like, oh, you're one of those people. I'm like, yeah, I have, I don't want to get, I don't want to get it. I have asthma and I'm wearing a mask the entire time, but I don't know. Uh, it's, it's nice that it's normal now. Yeah. It's almost like it's okay to wear a mask that you're not ostracized for it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to get to the question of my, okay, actually, I think we're at the place where we have actually become a better company this year. And that I say very proudly, um, you know, there's something oddly, uh, comforting about having a year where you're not expected to make money, where you're not expected to make a profit and that you are in the same boat as everyone. You know, one of the things that, um, you know, coming off of, uh, a failed restaurant concept, um, little octopus, and then giving it a second go with bar otaku, and then calling it and selling it, um, it, you know, that emotional roller coaster is very similar to the one that we just went through, but the emotional roller coaster of failing in public, um, when everyone else is doing great is very different than when you're in the same boat as everyone else.

14:10Right. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 100%. And that I felt a little bit more prepared to handle that emotionally based on what I had just been through. So let's talk about that a little bit more. Um, little octopus, you said that that didn't work in your terms. You said didn't work. And then you trend, you pivoted, pivoted way before pivoting was cool to, uh, borrow otaku. And then you stole that. I feel like this is not a new buzzword. No, little octopus was, um, a great idea and a very talented chef who was not ready to be a leader. And, um, you know, I'm sure that happens a lot and a more, uh, a restaurateur with more mileage than me would have seen that. And I didn't, I was besotted by him, besotted and his talent was so extraordinary to me and to many others.

15:17I mean, he was on his way to great accolades, but it takes more than that to run a restaurant a lot. And that is what I learned. What I learned is what it truly, truly takes to be a leader in a restaurant. And, um, I don't blame its failure on him. Um, it's a combination of things, you know, um, but I also think that, I mean, so many crazy things went into that concept that kind of just made it not click. Um, you know, I love great design and, um, that was a really big part of this for me was building a restaurant. It was really kind of a love letter, my love letter to Los Angeles and all of those beautiful, amazing, very invigorating and fun and kind of multi-sensory experiences that you have there, you know, design, music, vibes, all those things that Nashville was just beginning to learn.

16:18And I wanted to bring that so badly. So I'm on the West coast and Daniel, his concept is really very like French meets Caribbean. So right from the beginning, we were kind of like, where are we? Where is this restaurant? But we can never really come to terms with that. So we're like, fuck it. We'll just go with it. And, and then we had, we built, did you ever go to Little Octopus? Were you ever there? You know what? I was a, I want to say that I did, I don't, I don't think I did know it if you were, if you had been in the space, I've been in the culture a hundred times. I feel like I'd been there, but I was, I was a heavy drinker back in the day. We went to a lot of different places and I, I don't drink anymore for that reason. So I want to say like, I feel like I've been there, but I, I, there were a lot of nights. The design was extraordinary. And actually the designers are based out of Los Angeles. They're called design bitches. My favorite thing ever, design comma bitches. They're the best and Rebecca.

17:20And I felt so drawn to their work when I saw it in Los Angeles. And they designed both the ramen shop and Little Octopus and they won an international design award for this restaurant. They get tons of accolades, stunning, everybody talked about Little Octopus and too pretty. I said it was like the supermodel. Nobody wanted to ask out. That's the thing. I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a thing you can be ahead of your time. I overshot it. And then you've got that mirror in the front that we just loved that became a selfie mirror and like, and then the influencers got ahold of it and they started coming in and taking pictures and posting those pictures. And then it became an Instagram Haven. And then we had, you know, 20 year old Instagrammers parking it at a five top on a Friday night, spending $20 and taking selfies of themselves.

18:25Now that's not what, you know, killed the restaurant. It was just like, you know, these little things that happened through the way. And when, when the chef and I fell apart and we only made it six months in the new restaurant, the pressure was just too much. It was just too much for him. Then it was just a series of like, stay afloat, stay afloat. See what you can do. And you know, we didn't have the kind of money that we needed to bring in a big gun, a big gun chef. So we were just on vapors. I mean, that is the honest truth. You're being pretty vulnerable with that. I mean, was there a moment that you realized me? So my favorite coffee cup is a coffee cup that says, I shared it with my entire leadership team that says good decisions come from experience. And experience comes from making bad decisions or essentially you have to go through that. You have to touch the hot stove to learn that it's hot.

19:26Yeah. It's, it's part of, you said the season, the mileage on it, like that's all the mileage that you get and you get, now you're in your point. How much did you learn from that? Learning curve? 90 degrees. Yeah. So if I was to share this to other restaurateurs that were listening, what bits of advice, like, was there a moment when you realized that this wasn't going to work? That the chef, that the leadership wasn't there and what are you opened before you opened? What was it? I just had that sinking feeling. I had that sinking feeling inside of me that just was telling me this isn't going to work. And you didn't go with that. You went against that sinking feeling and went ahead with this, this whole thing. Yep. I was pushing a rope. I was following my passion and not my head. And it was a costly mistake, very, very costly mistake. But you know, I, I learned so much through this process, mostly about myself.

20:32And what did you learn about yourself? I learned that I am responsible for the behavior of my team. And if I don't like the behavior of my team, then I have to get rid of them and hire someone else. But to keep someone on that is incapable or that you're not compatible with, that lands on me. You know? And I, I got so in my head and so just distraught at my own failure. I'll never forget when I was trying to make the decision about flipping it and kind of seeing if we could, you know, save it and keep going. I have an advisor, a friend who has been extremely successful in the restaurant industry. He sold his group for $450 million. And I went to see him in desperation of an answer that would soothe me. And he looked me dead in the eye. And he's like, it's time to go.

21:34Get out. And I was just furious with him. But he was right. He was right. And I mean, Baro Taki was a ton of fun. I'm not going to say that it wasn't. I really enjoyed it. I had so much fun doing that project. And if it had been a different time and possibly a different location, I just think that location for us was, was really the thing that killed it. Like, it killed it before it opened it, plus all these other things. I love the Gulch. Clearly, the ramen shop has been extremely successful in the Gulch. And I am not down on that neighborhood at all. I love it because it's very central. But it's a tourist neighborhood. It's not local's neighborhood. And when we first started in the neighborhood, we didn't know that. So this is the first big lesson, right? Like, intuition and tons of analytics on real estate. We didn't do any of that. We operated 100% on emotion.

22:36I did no data. None. And so, you know, not looking at it from the very clear picture now, Hindsight's 2020, with Little Octopus, I think one of the biggest pieces of it was that it wasn't that for the type of, you know, traffic, walking traffic that you're getting through the Gulch, they are, you know, they're coming from regional southern areas and they don't get it. I like to say that Nashville has, in the restaurant industry here in Nashville, we serve three kinds of people, locals, tourists and travelers. Travelers and tourists are differentiated between the way they travel. Tourists blow their wad before they hit the ground. They're looking for the deal. They're looking to go get shitty in Music City. They're mostly the people that are going down to Broadway, to me. Travelers are people that are coming and staying in nice hotels and booking reservations in advance and want to have a food and wine experience on top of Broadway, you know.

23:43And by and large, because of the murals and some of the other tenants in the Gulch, it became a tourist and not a traveler destination. And that's what happened. I mean, if you have people that love your food, but they won't get in the car because they don't like the neighborhood, there's nothing you can do. Yeah, I mean, I think that if you run a place that cares about the guests and repeat guests and building relationships with your guests and creating food that you want to nourish your community, which to me seems like who you are. You want to nourish the community and you want to build community and you want to be a part of your community to have a bunch of tourists walking in, taking selfies, not giving a shit about everything that you're doing, like the meaning behind it can be deflating. And they're not ever going to get it. I mean, the travelers might. Travelers might come in and really appreciate it. They're the ones you'd like to see them share a picture.

24:46Yeah, those are the people. But I can totally see what you're saying. Yeah, and all of like and actually, I want to give some real props to the NCBC and to Butch Spearden for how many Europeans they brought here because they were our best customers. Direct flight to London helped. Yeah, I mean, that that was a game changer, game changer. And I think that that is going to benefit Nashville. And I'm hoping I'm just like crossing my fingers that that is going to continue because if we as a city only invest in the tourists, many of us will be in big trouble. Yes, that's one of the reasons for the podcast, by the way, is, you know, I used to drive Uber really as a hobby, just because I like to get a house, like to talk to people. And I was a sales guy and I worked with chefs and I worked all the restaurants. But like, I still liked I liked the service aspect of things.

25:46I have that spirit of service. I want to constantly work with people. But I would pick people up from the airport and start driving them around. And they would go, I go, so where are you guys going to eat? And they go, oh, where should we eat on Broadway? And I go, no, no, you shouldn't eat on Broadway. You should go to Broadway at like 11 o'clock at night and go do all the fun late night activities. But go to East Nashville, go to Germantown, go to the Gulch, go to these different go to the nations, go to some great places and eat in local restaurants. Let me tell you about some of these great places. And they're like, well, we thought we'd go to Jack's or we thought we'd go to, you know, Martin's downtown and that's what they would do. And so I kind of thought, hey, I could I could do a podcast where I could start talking about all of the amazing local restaurants and we'll get let people listen to this podcast before they come to town and they'll go, oh, I should go try other places. I'm going to learn about these other people. That was kind of that was in the back of my mind when I started this thing. Yeah. But I feel like in the very beginning of like I'm I'm actually born and raised here.

26:48And I grew up in Columbia, which is 50 miles south of here. So I basically grew up with no restaurants. Yeah. And, you know, Nashville was, you know, you work at two of the first restaurants in Nashville, you know, Mirables and Greenhouse Grill. And so this city did not have a history of hospitality. Right. And it didn't have I mean, it was known for food, but it was known for food in a very different way. So I always felt like it was even more difficult for restaurants like Little Octopus and and other, you know, casual fine dining restaurants to get on the radar because it's outside of the original identity of the city to crack that original identity and and make it more than it is to to expand the fabric of a city. It's really hard to do that very hard, really hard. And and I think we're getting there. And again, like, I mean, when I saw that IndyCar was coming here, I was like, damn, that's progress.

27:55I actually used to work for IndyCar. And and so and I don't know if anybody realizes this, but you realize that the Shelby Bridge is going to be shut down for two weeks. Right. It takes two weeks to build those tracks. Just saying, just saying it'll bring a lot of great people here. But it's going to be my ass. Yeah. But it's super fun to go watch a race like that. And and it will draw an incredible amount of travelers to our city. International travelers. They are national international travelers. I mean, IndyCar, it has a different audience than NASCAR. And so, you know, tourist travelers, kind of the same thing. And so I think, you know, I'm really excited for Nashville and how it feels to me that we've kind of this terrible year that we've had. All this political divisiveness, if we can look at any silver lining inside of this, I think it has called attention to the fact that possibly we need to diversify the personality of our city if we want to survive.

29:03Bachelorette and getting shitty in Music City is not the way for us to win. It is for a small group of people that are down there, but not the rest of us. And, you know, it needs to be spread out a little bit. I'm sorry, but I would say it needs to be spread out more. I mean, you know, I think that the perception of Nashville is being downtown and the honky tonks and getting drunk, like I think that the real traveler, the people that are travelers, like you recognize, they understand that Nashville is a food destination is there, but we could do a better job of of getting the word out. Definitely. Well, there are some developments coming here that are really going to change it to the better. More venues. I can't say because I'm under NDA, but I'm I'm involved as a consultant on a project that I am cannot wait for Nashville to find out about. It's international developers that have phenomenal taste.

30:04And it's it's culturally based. It's it's bringing music venues and food and beverage together. And that's really what we need in the city is to celebrate the great things about the city in ways that make it both engaging for locals and exciting for tourists and travelers. These are the kinds of developments that are going to bring it all together, which that gets me really, really excited. That gets me really excited. I want to know more. Yeah, I know. I can't wait till they can announce it. When do you think this now? When do you anticipate announcement to come? I think within six months. OK. Well, that's good. Yeah. So there's there. I think there is a lot more interest on a, you know, developers are good and bad, right? Like once you start to get into the restaurant industry, and we've been very, very fortunate to be kind of a bucket list restaurant in Nashville, so that's given us an open door to look at a lot of different developments in other cities and regionally and kind of see what other people are doing.

31:10And, you know, you've got I say that the mission of Otaku Ramen is to bring ramen to the ramen less. And that to me means that our next move is we're going to be going into the suburbs and really trying to bring what we do out to people in neighborhoods. I think if there's one really glaring experience from this last year that I've seen, I am not willing to invest 100 percent of my company in tourism area because it's too volatile. And I want to diversify myself into areas, into neighborhoods where when this happens again, it's not an if, it's a win. I'll have a little insulation and I can I can. And in a concept that I believe is built on love and comfort, you know, ramen is habitual. It becomes something that you love and it becomes a habit and something that you give to yourself when you need comfort.

32:12I want to be there for people when they need it. Right. And in places that they need it. But that makes it a little more risky for us because we're going into areas that are, by and large, underserved and or mostly served by corporate. So it changes the game a little bit. And that this last year has really given me the chance to focus on that and think about that and analyze that, you know, 100 percent. You know, we were just having this conversation the other day just about Green Hills Grill and Mayor Bulb locally owned and operated in the suburbs. Essentially, Green Hills is still a suburb in Brentwood, obviously being a suburb. But we've we've had just an amazing response. I mean, Green Hills Grill the other day, we were even with last year. I mean, our to go and delivery has just been insane. This past weekend was like the busiest we've ever been. But it's people that eat there three and four times a week and just having the community around us rally around who we are. And we give back and doing all the things like not relying on tourists and really relying on the people that are continued, come back and back and back is is everything in our core.

33:21It's who we want to be. And it's it's hard when you have to rely on this person is coming in one time and they might come back in a few years. Like you need that repeat. You need the people to come back and you want it. You know, part of walking around and talking to guests is my favorite thing that I do is building the relationships with people that come in and dine and knowing about them and seeing their kids grow up and that kind of stuff. That's like that's what it's really about. I couldn't agree more. This whole experience of this last year has fortified me in that I'm here to invest in Nashville locals. Yeah. If tourists and travelers want to find me, that's great. But that's not what I'm building my company off of. I I really want to be there for people that this I want to be their neighborhood ramen shop. Yeah, neighborhoods have become more important than ever to restaurants. I just talked about this in the last podcast that people have become more important than ever.

34:21I think we we're in a society where we've just been people everywhere. You kind of just take people for granted. I think when you take away anything, distance makes the heart grow fonder. Right. When you take away all the people, all of a sudden you realize like the perspective of, wow, people really are important and just those connections and human interaction. How much we I think we undervalued those things for a long time. I like you said, you definitely did. We were so wrapped up in growth. More is more. Bigger is better growth just for growth's sake. And I'm not blaming Nashville for this. This has been the whole country. The whole mentality of our country is more and more. And I really hope that that changes. I'm not I'm not no to capitalism and I'm not a socialist, but we got to slow it down. You know, I I think that you said it earlier. You said that the one thing coming out of this pandemic, you're going to be a better company. And I I think it takes a special person.

35:26I kind of think it's broken out. Like you said, there's the the tourists, the travelers and locals. I think we're kind of in a third, third, third thing as well with people in their businesses. There's one who's like, oh, this has happened to me. And I can't believe this has happened. Then there's the people that are like, OK, well, we'll figure this out. We'll be OK. We'll get through it. Let's let's make it happen. And there's like the third of the people that are like, holy shit, I've been waiting for a little bit of a break so that I can accomplish all this stuff. We're going to redo everything. We're going to hustle. We're going to get when this thing comes back, we're going to be running. We're going to be already mid sprint. And I think it's you kind of you kind of got to take that mindset going into this. We can be so much better of a company. And while I want to be empathetic to people that don't have an opportunity right now and I want to help those people, if you do have the means to really look in the mirror and go, this is the things I need to do to be better. This has been a brilliant 10 months, 11, 12 months now.

36:26To get all that stuff in check. I mean, this is I mean, on a personal level, I've watched every single master class. Is that not the best? Oh, my God. I love the master classes. I'm so into it. You know, Sarah Blakely, that's the girl I was talking about. That had the mug over her spanx, which is amazing. Oh, God, she's brilliant. Yeah. I mean, I think the if you if your company embraced technology coming into this, you had the heads up. And I'm a tech freak. I drive my team a little bananas because I'm constantly vetting new tech. Yeah. But that's the key. I mean, that is really as as as an owner stepping away from the chef role and and really focusing on the CEO and the owner role. That's my job. My job is to get out in front of everybody else and see what's out there and see what could be appropriate for our company. And we upgraded our to go system by tenfold over this process.

37:30And, you know, when when we first got back to business and, you know, I had come out of my covid haze and we decided on a strategy, we all came together and we were like, OK, if we're losing the dine in experience, how can we transfer that to the at home experience? And we put a lot of energy and time and money into that at home experience. And it's not for not like it's it's not just a covid thing. This is a forever thing for us. But covid forced us to do it and to put all of our energy into it in a way that we never would have before. Yeah. And I, you know, a lot of people ask me, people that are, you know, know ramen and understand the history and kind of the culture of ramen. It's until I'm not going to say until I started doing it by it. Well, first of all, in Japan to go ramen verboten. No, no, no, never, never, never.

38:31Which is kind of like I say it's kind of like coffee in Italy. If you don't have time to stand at the coffee bar and drink your coffee, you don't get it. Like there's no to go coffee in Italy. Really? No, no. Because because the coffee represents an experience and a moment as much as it does the coffee. Wow. Walking into your coffee bar, ordering from the same person, saying hello to them, standing next to the same people that you may stand next to every day and drinking your coffee and greeting those people. That's the experience. And the Italians have no they have no interest in changing that experience. They shouldn't. I love that. Exactly. So ramen is very similar in that way. It's more than just a food, it's an experience. And when you have a bowl of ramen that has been tirelessly engineered for that experience, it's very difficult to think about detaching that experience and handing it over to someone.

39:44So, you know, I it took me a little while. I mean, I've been at this almost 10 years now. To come around to doing that, and I was heavily criticized in the ramen community for serving ramen to go. Not just in Nashville, nationally, but. Yeah, we have to do we have to do. It was the right decision. Actually, there's a very famous he's kind of the godfather of American ramen. Ivan Orkin out of New York. And I've been fortunate enough to call him a friend and really a mentor in many ways. And I remember I was talking to him once about a year after I'd opened the ramen shop. And I said, you know, Ivan, what do you think of ramen to go? And he's so frank. I love him. He goes, it's my job to fucking sell ramen. I was like, OK, thank you for giving me permission. Thank you. Yeah.

40:44And so he kind of gave me permission. And then I went for it. And but with that, with that, there's a responsibility with that. There's a responsibility to not just mail it in and not just go, hey, look, we're closed. So we're going to do this. We're going to half ass because we have to. You went true to form and said, versus like that moment, you know, we're going to do everything we can so that you can still have that moment at home. And I'll say as a leader, as the masthead of my company, I can look back now and have a tremendous amount of confidence in my instincts. And that really helps me to grow and to say when I hear that voice in my head, say something to me, go, OK, I think this is right. And so that moment came again, like I said, when I looked at my husband and I said, are we going to try not to lose money or are we going to try make money? And I said, well, what if we did kind of like a full scale pop up? And we we took over a couple of restaurants in different neighborhoods so that we could extend our delivery radius and we could get to more people through what we know is going to be a difficult winter.

41:55Not that we actually got a winter other than for like a week. But, you know, this was my gamble. This was my bet. And in that process, I ended up finding a restaurant in in West Nashville that I literally walked into a brand new restaurant, pulled the plastic off of it, turn the lights on. And I mean, it was an unfortunate thing for the person that tried to open this restaurant. They didn't make it. They didn't didn't even get it open. But it was a boon for us. And we actually I can make the official announcement. We are there to stay. We have just signed a full term lease at Sylvan Supply. And so really longer a pop up where we're staying the full 10 years now. Wow. Congratulations. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, the neighborhood has been incredible to us. And that that has really been one of those kind of fun gambles that really paid off, you know. But at the same time, that was a scary moment to put money on the table and to say, OK, well, we still have to spend some money to open this fractional compared to opening a unit kind of the regular way.

43:08But we, you know, we did it ourselves. We did it fast and it's really paid off. So it seems like I think the winners, the people that are going to win through this are going to be the people that are both equally willing to take risk and have an infinite patience. Infinite patients think risk and. I think using nonsense, like thinking things that are like outside of logic sometimes will get you so far. You've got it. We've got innovation right now. And the people that are able to create and innovate and go a little beyond what everybody thinks you should do, I think is where you got to go right now. God, that's how my whole career started here. Yeah. Who started Nashville gave me the opportunity to bring things and introduce things that weren't here. God, is that fun? So fun. I love it. It's the best part of my job. And and I was about to do it again and start another all to go concept.

44:10And I stopped myself. So because I really want to stay focused on building the ramen shops. And I have, as my husband says to me, no new puppies, no new puppies, no new in the book Traction. I think they do. Are you familiar with Traction? Gina Wigman? Oh, it's a great, great. The entrepreneurial operating system, it's a great book. But he calls them shiny things. You know, you have a core focus. This is our core focus. And then sometimes shiny things come around. You're like, oh, I am. That could be fine. Terribly affected by shiny things. I'm like a barracuda. I see a shine. And then I go for it. That's in mileage, maturity, age. I mean, I'm 50 years old. I'm not a kid. And, you know, I'm able to listen to my inner voice now, not just let it pass. And we sat on this idea for a long time. And it was just grinding on me. We were just about to start, you know, doing R&D and packaging and all of this.

45:13And I just went. I'm trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Stop. You know, I had done that before, and it cost me greatly. So, you know, I think that I think that the real estate game is really going to change. And I'm not sure that the landlords have woken up to it yet. I think that I know I'm not alone in this for people that are in a decent position and looking to grow. When is the right time to grow in all of this? It's a very difficult question. But I think, you know, we ask ourselves every day, like, are we trying to go grow just because we want to get there before somebody else? That's not a good reason. Not in this one. Yeah. What is a good reason to grow? Need. Finding a need for the people. Something that people need. Yeah. If you're filling a niche that isn't there. And, you know, I mean, for us, our next stop is Franklin and Brentwood.

46:15And we're we're working on deals down there now. And I'm just really interested. You know, you always wonder, like, how much business is it going to take away from my original store? And, you know, granted, we are so small, really. We only have three units, right? I talk like I've got 50 units. No, I have one brick and mortar and two to go units. And so doing our next brick and mortar is is really, really important to us. And I don't know. It's it's difficult to say. Williamson County seems to just be like all guns blazing. And we well, I've got a restaurant in Williamson County. We're going to hear all about a new pop up opportunity coming up real soon after this word from our sponsors. Chef Anthony Mandriotta caught up with us on our last episode to talk about the curriculum at the all new Culinary Arts Program at NOSI College of Art. Yes, if you want to expand your horizons, you want to learn the fundamentals to work in a kitchen or you just want to get better at something, NOSI College of Art has a brand new Culinary Arts Program.

47:27Chef Anthony Mandriotta, previously of the Art Institute, is going to be running it. It is small classrooms, lots of times to get intimate, to learn, to really hone in on your craft. So if you would like to be part of the inaugural class at NOSI College of Art, check them out at NOSI.edu. That's N-O-S-S-I dot E-D-U. When talking about what chefs want, really, the question is, how do they do it? No fees, no fuel charges, no surcharges, never. This allows you to order as much or as little as you need, as often as you need. Seven day delivery, access products every day, trimming your waste, increasing your valuable shelf life and allowing you fresher product, 24-7 customer support. Call, text, chat, email anytime from anywhere. They take a team approach to serving you at 800-600-8510 or whatchefswant.com.

48:32They have a very they have very diverse product lines. Their chefs have access to thousands of items across many different categories that allow them to receive fresh products daily. This type of flexibility helps chefs with the ability to offer and test new menu items with ease. They have hundreds of trucks on the road every day to reach their vast market. The focus is tight urban areas where groups of restaurants and chefs are located. Additionally, they have trucks from coast to coast, bringing products to farms and artisans across the globe. You can order through your phone app or online. They truly are what chefs want. Check them out at whatchefswant.com. You know, I just had this crazy idea you do if you're good at the pop up thing, we should test out Williamson County. You should do a pop up at Maribor one night. Any time we could do. Well, we're closed on Sunday night, so I don't know if that's even a thing. I'm into it. Let's do let's do like a fun Otaku ramen pop up at Maribor on a Sunday night. Do you have a noodle cooker? We got all kinds of equipment.

49:36We can get one or we can bring one and we can make it happen. Pasta cookers are the only thing that stopped me from doing pop ups. So we'll talk about that. But yeah, that reminds me that gives me like flashbacks to when we used to do pop ups in our early pop up days. Like one of our very first ones was at Barista Parlor. And I mean, there were like 200 people lined up. And I mean, God love Andy for giving me that space to do that. And, you know, he didn't he doesn't even have a hood in there. So he doesn't have like an electrical. We're we're busting the breakers one after another. Oh, wow. Boom, boom, boom. Trying to keep these induction burners keeping, you know, really hot, clean water going so that we can share noodles. Nightmare. Well, we'll let's definitely talk about it, because I mean, I would work. We're always doing fun things and done. Yeah, we got it. We got a beautiful place and we're closed on Sunday nights for now. We do a big brunch on Sunday mornings. But Sunday nights like we should do something like that.

50:38Let's have some fun with it. I love doing that. And again, like I think that if there if there's anybody here listening that is like, I really want to open a restaurant. I have a concept. I have an idea. Be a pop up for two years. I challenge you. And if you can make it through two years and you have a brand, then guess what? You have equity before you even sign a lease. You have equity. Yeah. So build your equity. That's one of the things I am extremely proud of and that I know is a huge part of the secret of our success is that we invested in bootstrapping and lofying it for a couple of years. And by the time we signed a lease and opened our doors, we had a fan. We had fan base. That's kind of what I'm doing with the podcast, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it mitigates the risk dramatically, you know, for the amount of capital that it takes to get into this business, for the amount of risk that it takes to get into this business and to sustain it. There's absolutely no reason why not. And I mean, doesn't it feel like there's a whole new generation of pop ups happening now?

51:39It's so fun to see. That's what happened throughout the entire pandemic. I love just it's been pop up after pop up and it's been really good food. I think the authentic Mexican culture with Albregay and Maiz de la Vida with Julio Hernandez. All those people may have been doing such really good food. And I like what John Stevens is doing at Haythorne, where he's just inviting everybody in. Hey, come on, we'll just do pop ups in my restaurant. I mean, we're smart. But that's that's what I'm talking about, like the innovation of not just saying, oh, this is my restaurant. I'm doing my food like, no, bring people in. Let's collaborate. I mean, that's what the Nashville hospitality community is all about. Right. Well, we're all friends. Everybody knows each other. Why are we not collaborating and doing really cool, unique things when people are at home? And I scroll Facebook and I see that, you know, Bastion is doing a dinner with three different chefs. I got to be there. I got to go to that. I got at least order it to go. Yeah. I mean, that's how do you not?

52:40I mean, I would love to see more. That was the first thing that I did. I mean, when I started pop in East Nashville, the first thing I wanted to do was bring chefs from all over the country to Nashville. I mean, I had Dominique Crenn cook in that janky ass kitchen in East Nashville. I remember pop. That's when I first met you, when it was pop and it was tiny. I think I met your house. Your husband was there, too, right? Yeah, Brad. Yeah, it was like, I think you called us at Creation Guard. You're like, hey, we want to talk about this. And I was like, what are you? It's called pop. Like, yeah, what is this up the stairs and all that fun doing that? I mean, yeah, it was such a blast. And honestly, like anybody I called said yes to come into Nashville because everyone was so curious. It was like shooting ducks in a bucket. I mean, Dominique Crenn, to this day, like one of the most incredible creatures I've ever met and been lucky enough to stay friends with her and to constantly be inspired and learn from her. Andy Ricker had him in.

53:41Oh, my God. His food was unbelievable. He is absolutely terrifying. And I I admire him so deeply. He said something to me. So one of my kind of like guises and tricks that I would do inviting these chefs here was not just for you guys. It was for me. And I would pick them up at the airport and drive them around the city and pelt them with questions. I bet I had them. I had them all, you know, and I'll never forget. Andy said something to me. He said, you know, this is really interesting what you're doing here. And this reminds me a lot of what I did in Portland. He's like, as you grow, be a pioneer. What whatever neighborhood you go into, whatever you do, be a pioneer. And I grapple with that comment in my mind a lot. I think about it a lot and use it as a tool because it's it's different everywhere you go, you know, and, you know, you look at some of the things that Andy has done and he was a pioneer and it didn't work out like, you know, he brought Thai food to Los Angeles, which is like bringing sand to the beach.

54:51And and then he opened in Chinatown. So but but just to not necessarily follow the rule, but to reflect on it constantly. You know, there were so many gems and lessons in those years that I really I feel lucky that I am the age I am in the part of my career that I'm in, because if I was 30 or 25 when all of this was happening, I never would have thought to to ask these questions, you know. So is that is that the most important thing is as you go along, if I'm talking to a young chef or a young restaurant owner or somebody who wants to own a restaurant, I think that the most important thing is to be coachable and is to be able to listen, listen to people like I love listening to you. Just talking to you right now, like I I kind of want to do a podcast just talk to all these people and learn because I enjoy listening. Is that the most important thing? If I'm in the industry that I can do is is what if I was a young if I was 25 years old and I went open restaurant, I called you and said, hey, can I take you to lunch? Can I learn about?

55:56Would you share that with me a lot? Yeah. I mean, I say and I'll say it again to anyone out there that is an aspiring restaurateur, if you want to email me, my email is Sarah S.A.R.A.H. at the otaku group dot com T H E O T A K U G R O U P. I will share with you an empty pro forma, which is a financial snapshot, like snapshot of a restaurant. And I say this quite often when I mentor and I teach and I speak. If you want to be in the restaurant industry, you have to learn the numbers first. And if you are in the restaurant industry and you have a new concept and you're in your first or second year, if I take you out for dinner or drinks on, if I ask you these questions on your third drink, you should be able to answer them. What's your food costs? What's your profit margin? How much is your labor? If you can't answer those questions, you have no business being in this business. Or what's the most profitable item on your menu?

57:00I think that's for me is what's the most profitable item on your menu. Do you know the difference between margin and a food cost percentage? Exactly. And I think that so many young people get wrapped up in their in their passion and emotion like I did. And I can say this wholeheartedly. I made a million dollar mistake on my emotions. So have sex with your numbers. Know your numbers. Know them so much that you can recite them ad nobium. And it's that comfort with your numbers that will make you successful. But actually, the concept comes second. I learned that. And if you don't have a solid foundation of how to run a business and you start a business and then you hire someone to come run your business for you out of the gate, you're going to have trouble. And I think the one thing I really like to share with people young or old, whoever wants to get into this business, I am 100 percent an open book.

58:02If you want to learn more about the to go technology that's out there and the options that you have, I'm an open book there. I'll tell you what we use, what I see, what I found, where I think it's going. I think that the to go to go technology is about to change again. And I think that you're starting to see a lot of players try and disrupt the space. We're seeing a lot of that right now. Mm hmm. I mean, I go into it. I mean, I go into it. I'm there. I would love to know what you think about it. I mean, that's a big topic for a lot of people. Yeah. So we were in a very fortunate position when third party delivery started in Nashville. We were doing to go. And so we got approached by every single one of them and said, hey, will you be exclusive with us? And so we were able to negotiate a pretty incredible rate that we have been able to hold on to. I have had to fight for it tooth and nail. But the the the real truth is those numbers should be available to everyone.

59:07They're only available to me because of the volume that I do. So that in itself is a shit sandwich. And I don't think that it's fair. And for locally owned and operated mom and pops. No. So there's there's different layers. OK, so you've got let's say so our structure. You can download an app and you can use the otaku ramen app, which is basically the same technology as our website. And we use a company called Go Parrot, which builds that whole back end website and executes all of that. So if you click on pick up very easy, that ticket comes out at Expo at that unit. If you click delivery, that ticket now we're still on my website. That ticket pops up on Expo and then it gets pinged over to what's called dispatch delivery. OK, so Postmates, Uber and DoorDash.

01:00:10And I'm not sure that Grubhub does it yet, but all three of those entities have two ways that you can work with them. Number one is through the marketplace, which is using their app and their website. And that's where they charge you a commission. Or they can be your dispatch delivery on the back end of your existing site. So Go Parrot has created the ability for us to have that contract with DoorDash and Postmates to be our delivery partner, not our marketing partner, our delivery partner. So that's a big, big deal what you just now said right there. And I think a lot of people think that Uber Eats and Postmates, that's all they do is the delivery side. What they're charging you for mostly is to be promoted on the marketing of their website. Like they want their guys. That's their trick. That's their trick. They say we're going to promote you and they do bring you a lot of business. But at 30 percent, I don't know anybody that makes 30 percent profit. I mean, they're just they're hurting more people than they're helping.

01:01:11So the idea of utilizing a aggregator like that from Go Parrot, who's thinking of you're using your marketing. You want to order from me, you go to my website. You have to work harder to build a lift, to do the marketing and all of that. But so that that delivery drop, once I, you know, you order three bowls of ramen. It gets pinged over to dispatch that delivery drop, regardless of whether it's one bowl of ramen or 10 is seven dollars. And then I charge five dollars to the guest. So I went from it charging, costing me based on my average ticket price and my percentage of commission. It comes out to an average of five dollars per drop. I just went from five dollars to two dollars. Well, that's great. So the onus is on marketing. And again, I think this is the second most important piece of owning a restaurant. Finance first, marketing second. You got to. And if you don't invest in marketing and building a list in talking to your customer and having a relationship with your customer through marketing, keeping that email list super warm, flushing it out all the time and making sure that you you're you know who you are and that your message is clear and that you're being consistent with that message.

01:02:32Then you're going to pay 30 percent. So for some restaurants, it's just not possible to do all of that. Right. And that when the world goes back to normal, let's say Green Hills Grill, for example, in your mind, how much based on the percentage of to go that you're doing now, how much of it do you think will go away and how much of it do you think will stay? Well, it's interesting you say that, because I've been looking at those numbers pretty hard over the last. No, we do. We're self-delivery. We don't use any third party delivery. We do all we have. We bought our own cars. We have our own Green Hills Grill. Wow. OK. We have a yeah, we have our own vehicles. We have our own fleet with three cars, three Ford, how many can they do at once? We typically don't like to do more than two or three. But right now we we've been doing we had our lowest delivery percentage last week and it was like thirty two point eight percent of our total sales on on Friday night. And that's a that's still a pretty healthy number that we're doing.

01:03:33But we we only charge like a two dollar ninety eight cent delivery fee. That's it. So how many are you doing on an average night? I mean, we're doing 30 or 40. We're doing a lot. I mean, we have three drivers going out with nonstop throughout the night. I mean, it's it's a delivery out of Green Hills. You're basically dispatch at Expo. We are. We are. Yeah. The Expo is the we do everything through toast. So it comes in through toast. They order online through toast. It comes in. We prepare the food. The thing is, we own the process 100 percent. So when it comes in in that direction, we get it. We put a note in the bag. Our drivers take it and never leaves our hands. It goes directly from one of our uniformed people is at the door thanking Dr. Johnson for his order. And we're able to keep that whole thing going. I mean, I think that's the key. We're moving in that direction. But for the amount of volume that we do and the I pushed the radius pretty hard.

01:04:37The other thing that I really like about Go Parrot is and there are several other systems out there, but they're kind of at more enterprise level. And if anybody wants to know about them, just email me. Is that Go Parrot has geo fencing. So I can geo fence an area so that if you say, I want to order from the East Nashville location for delivery, but you live in Green Hills, it won't let you. Yeah, we have a four mile radius. Yeah. You have a four mile radius. That's smart because we pushed we had a five mile radius. We pushed it to seven and then it was a disaster. And then we went back and we were like, OK, how much business are we getting from those extra two miles? And it was a very small amount. So we killed it. And so now compromises all the other. Yeah. Yeah. We got about like 440 and then, you know, all those all the houses over there in the Harding Place, Harding Place at Hillsborough. Do you hire those drivers as full time employees and they just do other side work when they don't have deliveries?

01:05:45Yeah, we just hire drivers. I mean, they're drivers that come in for the busy times. I mean, daytime, we have two people. Nighttime, we usually have six or seven people in the building to take the orders. We're still people. We still take phone calls. We take phone calls online and then everything goes through. We have to we have an assembler that works on the line with the expo, who then assembles everything we have. It's a whole we have an entire system for the whole thing. But that was one of the things during the pandemic that once it once it we had to close the inside of the restaurant. I went and picked up food one day and it wasn't good. And the guy that came out was wearing shorts and was the manager. He knew it was me, but he was like, hey, man, here's your food. And I got home and I was like, this is dry. And I lost my mind and I came back from the restaurant and I go, no guest will ever get food that tastes like my food yesterday. It needs to be the exact same thing they would get if they ate here. I don't care if it's we didn't sell enough yesterday. Throw the stuff away. They have to have the absolute no excuses. There's no oh, well, we're in a pandemic like nothing.

01:06:45It has to be the same. It has to be perfect. Is they have to open this at home and go, wow, I could be eating at the restaurant and we have to maintain that standard. And it can't be any different. And it's just kind of pedal to the metal ever since. I mean, it's it's been that's offered. And why why did you decide to buy a fleet rather than have each driver use their own car? I think that there's a marketing piece to it. So all the cars say Green Hills Grill and they're really inexpensive to do that. And the insurance was better if it was in our vehicle. I think it just gets, oh, this happened to my car. I don't want to have to check somebody else's vehicle for scratches every day and then the upkeep and then mileage for them. And if it's just our vehicle, we own all of those expenses and the insurance. Something happens to it. It's our vehicle. I mean, obviously, we carry the insurance if there's any kind of bodily harm, if there's some sort of accident, but if something scratches a car or whatever, the payment on them are relatively cheap.

01:07:47You know, if you can. And one of the things I'm working on is I want to I want to coordinate with an insurance company and a car dealer and then go into toast and partner with all three of them and put a package together that says, hey, and do a whole podcast based upon if you want to do your own delivery system. I've worked out a deal with this delivery system, this company and for, you know, nine hundred dollars a month. You could have a car and insurance and everything. And I guarantee you're paying Uber Eats more than nine hundred dollars a month. OK, so this is really cool. So let's say that we combine what we're doing. So the system that we're on would allow that. So let's say that Otaku buys two cars. We just want to dip our toes in and see. Yeah. And we have two drivers, but we have we need six. And so the system will ping us first. And then if we hit no, it'll go to dispatch delivery.

01:08:50Oh, now that is something that you have a backup plan is a backup plan. It's super busy. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. So we we chose Square, which a lot of people, I mean, we're as the for the ramen shop, we're kind of moving more towards QSR, you know, our our units down the road are going to be counter service. And we're even contemplating, deeply contemplating, converting the gulch into a counter service restaurant. And that is a huge topic in my Oh, tell me what counter service you're going to have digital screens. I don't want them. So I'm going to I've never talked about this before. But so you you love tech. I love tech. We go to food service tech in Florida every year. Like we take the management team. We go to the food service technology conferences. We're obviously we didn't go this past year because they didn't have it. It's online, though. But I love all the back. I love technology is how restaurants are able to.

01:09:51You're able to really add your profitability. One of the ideas is dynamic pricing. Are you familiar with this concept? I am. Do you think that Nashville can handle it? I'm just waiting for somebody to be the trailblazer, because if you do counter service and you've got video boards, you're pricing. And for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, Uber has surge pricing, right? We get really busy. Their prices go up. So if you're a restaurant and it's Friday night and there's a huge wait, your prices go up 20 percent. So while I'm really busy, a dish that would normally cost ten dollars is now 1250. If you wanted it, eight dollars come in at three o'clock. And so is that twelve dollars based on your 20 percent and that eight dollars based on. A lot later, it's encouraging people to come in when you're slow. Is the eight dollars your your your ideal and twelve dollars is price gouging? I don't know if it's price gouging or if it's a hey, when we're really busy.

01:10:55And obviously, we can't do these sort of things. It's just a concept that I based upon Uber that you go when you're really it's it's to space out the time which people go out to eat. I encourage people to come in earlier or later versus a product. Do what? Say that again. It's different when you're talking about a service versus a product. OK, I feel like. You know, variable pricing is doesn't feel right to me when it comes to a product. I mean, I do you know how hard it was for us to to convince people that ramen is not worth 99 cents and to convince people that a bowl of ramen for fifteen dollars is worth it. And why? I mean, that alone has been really, really a long process. And anybody else that sells ramen in Nashville that comes after me can thank us for that, because we've trained people to understand the value of an authentic bowl of ramen.

01:12:00Yeah. If you tack surge pricing onto that comfort onto that, I think maybe for casual fine dining, but for a QSR or a fast casual, it feels wrong. I don't know. That's it. That's it. Well, I think that's the question. I mean, it was brought up to me in one of these conferences. If you have video boards, you could change the pricing and it could mirror with your POS system to encourage people. I mean, so I mean, is it a. We have a line outside the door and the line outside the door is prohibiting people from getting that they want the product, but it's at six o'clock on Friday, there's a long line. You're always going to have to wait. But if I knew at six o'clock on Friday, that product was thirteen dollars. And if it was a ten dollar product and it was twelve fifty at six o'clock, but it was only eight at eight dollars at three thirty or four o'clock in it from five to six, it was ten dollars the exact price.

01:13:03Like it was more of a lines to, hey, if you could even out your rush so you didn't have as many people waiting, which then prohibits the level of service because you're you're literally sitting people down who've been sitting waiting for 30 minutes. They're already agitated because they had to wait. And it's like, hey, but you could have a discount if you came in an hour ago. You would encourage people to to kind of even that whole night. That word I don't like. This was that. I hate that. No, I said discourage. Right, but. Perception of fluctuating price could be seen as discount, right? Or it could be seen as surge, dependent on how you what side you're on. I have a really firm belief that and actually it's scientifically proven. People get addicted to discounts, but they don't get addicted to free. And so we work off of a we're just getting ready to launch a loyalty program that's built on free, not discounts. And we learned this in the Gulch, the hard way.

01:14:05People you give like one of the things that I have a really hard time with and not because I'm being a greedy restaurateur, but because of this little piece that I just said. Piece that I just said. Why should I have to give a 20% discount to people that live in the neighborhood just because they live in the neighborhood? Why do I have to do that? And then come to expect it, right? And, you know, a 20% discount, that's a profit margin. That's my fucking profit margin. Why would I give that away just so that they come more often? I don't see the value in that. So, yeah, are you familiar with Simon Sinek? Find your start with it. Start with why is his big book. Oh, right. Well, he says I'm just I was on an airplane last week and I was listening to it. I've watched all of his TED talks and stuff, and I was trying to identify this just as marketing idea of starting with why. If your company starts with the why, like you're talking about, we want to create a comfort food and an experience based around ramen that's unlike anything else.

01:15:13Yeah, that's who you are. And then there's a why, then there's an about and then there's a what. Discounts, in essence, is manipulation. Because I'm manipulating you to purchase something I have based upon a discount. I'm going to give you a discount. And it's supposed to motivate you like you should be motivated by my core of what I am and what I'm producing. That's what Apple. Apple doesn't get discounts. No, it's a race to discounts or a race to the bottom. They're a race to the bottom. You start discounting it. Every time I get a Val Pak and I open the Val Pak, I go, who's going out of business next? You start looking at it and you're like, oh, yeah. But I feel like marketing is so important to understand the like. I just you know, another thing that I think we already touched on it that I've just loved about this year is how much I've learned. Like I've listened to more podcasts, I've taken more online classes. Like I just love it. I'm just soaking it up. And, you know, for for all my experience and years of working in advertising and building brands and being an entrepreneur, I actually really didn't understand the basic tenets of marketing.

01:16:21I'd never been taught. I'd never taken a marketing class. I didn't know. And so I took my my daughter is applying to NYU and she's kind of obsessed with this marketing. Very famed marketing professor there named Scott Galloway. And if you guys don't know about him, he's really fun to listen to. He has a predictive podcast. It's pretty extraordinary, like he makes all kinds of brand predictions and he gets brought into all over the world to make predictions. But he has an online class now called Section four. That is basic brand sprint strategy. It's so fascinating to just see the basic building blocks. Like if you're looking at a menu and for me, you know, I'm trying to build a company. My goal is to build 10 units in the next six years. So if I'm looking to build something like that, then I have to think about what my menu is going to look like at 10 units. Right. And so they say is the freezing point of your product.

01:17:22What's the freezing point? How much of that menu is frozen and is static everywhere you go? It's the same. And then how much of that menu is kind of regional or changeable or, you know, is specific to that area or that unit? These were never things that I ever thought about before. So it's been really, really cool to expand my knowledge in that area and really take a completely different ownership of marketing. And I've also been very kind of anti social media for myself personally. And, you know, just hounded by my publicist. You know, I wrote a book a couple of years ago and I loved writing the book, but I hated promoting it and swore I would never do it again. And and then I I finally had to like come to terms with that and say, you know what, I'm I'm being foolish here. And why not just do it the way I do things and make it my own rather than just poo poo what everybody else is doing?

01:18:29So finally, I forced myself to buy a camera, buy a lighting package and set it up so that I could cook in my kitchen and cook for people online. And it's it's not easy. It's a tremendous amount of work to get it going. But it's fun. Now I'm having fun with it. And and then and now I know who I am in that realm. But not until I I'm so analytical and practical, like I have to see the building blocks of anything. I have to know what the rule is before I can break the rule. Yeah. Break the rules. So this little marketing class that I took, it was just a game changer for me. It's just like, oh, I get it now. So, you know, investing in your education is is more exciting than ever. And I mean, I even came as close. I couldn't afford it. And I didn't get the scholarship, but I applied for a scholarship at Harvard. Wow. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I applied for an MBA and with a with an emphasis in data analytics.

01:19:33Why not? Yeah. I mean, why not? What's the worst they can do? I mean, I'm sitting in this house cooking, shooting, talking to you, running a business. Why not take a class at Harvard? I hey, I it's funny because you say that I just started a book club. Oh, what's your yesterday? It's called Brandon's Book Club. It's a very catchy title. Yeah. And it is it's for my team. It's for both teams at the restaurants. Well, it's for the leadership team. And then anybody in the restaurant is a server kitchen, anybody. We're going to start reading a book every month. And it's going to be a leadership book, a growth book or a restaurant centric book. And I've opened this up to all of my listeners, all the people from National Restaurant Radio, anybody that wants to do it. And at the end of the month, we're going to do a zoom call. And during the zoom call, I'm hoping to get the author of the book on and we're going to discuss it and we're going to discuss the book together. And it's going to be something that hopefully people it's going to be restaurant based.

01:20:37So how does this apply to you and your career and culture? And we're just going to read books like your stuff, Brandon. Yeah, we're going to have a ton of fun. So you're welcome to if you want to join in. The first month is going to be John John G. Miller. The book is called The Question Behind the Question or QBQ. And it's a it's my favorite book. It's required reading for all managers. And I thought it was a good level set book. It's a book based upon personal accountability. I've ever read it before. But it's all about personal accountability and ending victim thinking and taking ownership for everything that you do. And it's like an hour and a half read. It's not it's like big words. And it's like 120 pages is not bad at all. And it's it's super informative. And we're going to hopefully get the author on. He's been on the show. I've had the author on the show before. Did a full episode with him, but we're going to try and bring it back if he'll do it. Yeah, we're going to talk and then next month we'll do another one. And maybe a chef memoir or we'll do that. I want to hear just everybody's opinions. And then around my what do you got?

01:21:40It's it was a New York Times bestseller about 20 years ago. It's called The Highest Goal. And it's written by a guy named Michael Ray, R.A.Y. And his first book was called Creativity and Business, which was also the name of the class that he taught at Stanford for many, many, many years. And he taught Bezos. He taught jobs. They were all in his class. And he was kind of the total hippie that would like sit on the desk in his meditative state while all of these nerdy engineers were filing into his class and would just sit there until somebody talked, you know. And he lays out. So I have so many young people, and I'm sure you do, too, that work for me that all have these giant aspirations as they should. And many of them to work for themselves.

01:22:41And I always try and get them to read this book because I've been an entrepreneur my entire career. And this was a really pivotal moment for me when I read this book. And I actually emailed him. And it was it was kind of it's kind of a weird story. So at the time, I owned a company called Ten Music, and I was licensing music. I represented about 80 independent record labels and publishers. This was in 2002. And I licensed their music to commercials. So I got to write really big checks to really small artists. And it was super fun. I got to present to Steve Jobs. I got to put the first song that first electronic music song in an Apple commercial. So cool. Lots of really cool first. But.

01:23:43I'm a lone wolf. I'm an only child, and I have always worked for myself pretty much. And so there's been a lot missing from my education because I chose to do it alone. And this was like one of those flights from New York to L.A., because I was in advertising, so I was constantly having to go out and do sales and call on ad agencies across the country. And I picked it up and I read it cover to cover on the flight. And I think the person that was sitting next to me was like, is this woman some kind of a religious zealot or something? Because I kept screaming like, yes, like, and I had like a real emotional state with this book. And so it was it happened to be that my daughter was very young. I had just come home and I would always have a really hard time with reentry after a sales trip, kind of like take the fangs off, get back into mom mode. That was always so hard for me. Oh, yeah. And so I was struggling with that and was really like very into this book.

01:24:45And I had a sleepless night and it was it happened to be the same night that the they were waiting to announce who the next pope was going to be. And so I'm looking on CNN like waiting for that white black smoke, a white smoke of the papal stack, you know, and I'm having this kind of internal crisis. And all of a sudden there here comes the smoke. And they're like, a leader, a new leader is born, a leader, a leader. And I was like, oh, I'm a shitty leader. That's the problem. And so I was super distraught with myself and I emailed this author at five a.m. in the morning and he emailed me back at five fifteen. And we were on the phone by five thirty. Wow. And we talked for two hours. And it's it's a really easy read. And basically what he does is his theory is that there is a core to who you are that is ostensibly unchangeable. Your only task is to figure out who that is.

01:25:47And when you figure out who that is and you stay close to that, no matter what you do, you will be successful as long as you know the core of who you are. Right. And he goes through a whole series. He takes you into a series of memories of your own memories to help you kind of unearth this. And it's just it's delightful experience because. And, you know, some some tough things can come up, too. But it's the kind of self work that it just really it started me on a path of self-learning that I had not been on before. And I think it's I find it to be just the right message at the right time for young people that feel overwhelmed by the sense of the world is telling me that I have to do everything myself, that I have to work for myself, I have to make my own money. I can't work for anybody else. I have to be an entrepreneur. I have to be a millionaire. I can do it all myself. No, you don't. You don't have to do it all yourself.

01:26:49And the work that you need to be doing is on yourself. Finding out who you are, because then the rest of it is quite easy. OK, that's it. Sarah, the highest goal by Michael Ray. Yeah, one of my favorite ever. That's going to be our April Book Club book. You just got you got you. I'm in. So now if you if you have people that you want to read that book and do it, and maybe you can help me make an introduction to Michael Ray. Yeah. Come on. Because we're going to do is we're going to do the zoom and we're going to record it and then put that out as a podcast. Amazing. So we do the zoom at the end of the month. We talk about what our thoughts are in this whole thing. This could be a really great. I'm excited. I love and it's an easy read. So I don't want to do things that are too hard. A war and peace type books, but like stuff that people can read in a month and that really are good, thought provoking things that people can come on and we can talk about. So I meant another book.

01:27:51And it's not I don't know if it's for your book club, but for anyone listening that owns a restaurant, I found this book to be really soothed me a little bit. Going back to Scott Galloway from NYU, he wrote a book called Post Corona, and it's a really easy listen on Audible. And it's it's very big. It's looking at things large scale. It's talking about like, what's Tesla going to do? What's Apple going to do? What's Uber going to do? But it really will give you a framework up against some of the own perceptions that you may have about what's going to come next, what's going to happen next. And I think there's a lot of good information in there about where real estate's going. Don't be finding any leases based on corporate office space. Yeah. Nope. Good Intel. That is not going back to normal. Gotcha. Yeah, I don't I didn't think it would be. Oh, yeah, but the landlords sure do.

01:28:52They're still trying to convince you that it is. Oh, it's coming back like that's probably not. People have seen the positive effect of working from home and that you don't need to have those big offices. No, that's they're going to go away. Well, Sarah, I have kept you here for a long time. This is fun. Yeah, I've had a I've had a blast. We got to do this again. If you know me, like, does Brandon like to talk like, oh, my God, he won't shut up. Anyone that has a podcast likes to talk. But I'm also learning to listen. That's the that's the thing. I will. I will also want to listen. And I value everything that you've said. And I've just enjoyed getting to know you a little bit. This is fun. We have to do this again. We'll have to do. We'll have to talk after we get off here. We'll put some details together about some fun things going forward. I love for you to join the book club. I have a Facebook page called Brandon's Book Club. OK, you are welcome to join. You can invite anybody on your team if you want to invite your team to this and say, hey, guys, get involved and you get them on the Zoom call.

01:29:54And we can all I'd love to build it up to be something that is helpful to a lot of people in the industry as a little thing. I also have an Instagram page, Brandon underscore in our national restaurant radio brand underscore in our book club. And so we're post pictures and different things. I love for people to tag me and stuff. Or there's a book that you think we should read. Put it in there. This is the group. It's a private. It's a private group. The Brandon's book club. So, I mean, I've got a bunch of restaurant owners and people in there. But if you want to join the group and you want to post about the book, the first book is John Miller's QBQ, the question behind the question, which is a great book for anybody to read. And then in April, looks like we'll be doing Michael Ray's. And you said it's called The Highest Goal. Yep. So I'm excited about that. And then you also mentioned post corona and who's post corona by Scott Galloway, Scott Galloway. It's just another good one. If you do have like audible or various in his readings, but he's fun to listen to. He's, you know, like all the bells and whistles on the podcast. Lots of like bangs and wishes and who he drops.

01:30:59Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of drama, but he's he's a smart man. Good. I love it. Well, I I don't know how to say thank you enough. We'll have to do it again. And thanks for joining us. That I really, truly mean it. If you guys want to email me, please do. I love working with other people and sharing knowledge and that's a big part of who I am and what I do. So don't hesitate. I almost forgot that you kind of just did it there. But every episode, I finished the episode off and I let the guest take us out. You get to I open the floor. We've kind of said a lot here today. But if there's anything else you like to say, I always like to opening the floor for you to say whatever you want to the community. Yeah. I mean, just remember, we have to stick together in this industry. And I truly believe that nothing is proprietary. There is nothing on a sheet of paper that you do that. If I decided I wanted to do it, there's no way I could do it the same as you.

01:32:01So sharing information is the only way that we can become a stronger industry. So think about that. We're a team. I love it. Sarah Gavigan, thank you so much for your time today. You're a saint. All right. Sarah Gavigan, thank you for joining us today on National Restaurant Radio. You have made it this far. You are amazing. That is a birthday present to me. You are so awesome. I hope that you and yours are being safe and that you are well. I love you guys. Bye.