The Gospel of Cocktail Podcast with Kala Ellis

00:00We absolutely love partnering with Sharpies Bakery. Erin Mosso has been selling bread, fresh baked bread to locally unoperated restaurants six days a week for 36 years. Yes, her father started the company 36 years ago and Erin took it over five years ago and it is doing amazing things. I have so many guests that come in the studio that are like, I love Sharpies, they save me so much time and the bread is so good. So we've got round buns, specialty round buns, dinner rolls, hoagies, baguettes, they do cheesecake, they do flourless chocolate, tortes, they do specialty loaf breads and regular loaf breads and bullies, bullies, B-O-U-L-E-S, sourdough, long tuscan, wheat, multigrain, they got everything. You should go check them out at sharpies.com. That is Sharpies, C-H-A-R-P-I-E-R-S.com or you should give them a call at 615-356-0872. Supporting local is so damn important and Erin Mosso and all of our friends over at Sharpies Bakery do that daily.

01:10Give her a call right now. You know, what chefs want, some people still call it creation gardens, but what chefs want has been, was our first advertiser on the show. Monty Crawford saw what we're doing, he goes, I wanna be part of it, dude, I love it. And I just, I love that. They're so perfect because they work with locally owned and operated restaurants better than anyone. And let me tell you how they do it. No minimums, no fees, no fuel surcharges, no surcharges any time. They deliver seven days a week. They have 24 seven customer support. You can call, text, chat, email anytime from anywhere or you can reach them at 502-587-9012. They have a diverse line of products. Their chefs have access to thousands of items across many different categories that allow them to receive fresh product daily. What Chefs Want is the perfect addition to any broad line company as they've got all of your fresh produce delivered daily plus custom meats, anything that you need that your broadliner can't get.

02:13Give them a call, 800-600-8510 or visit them at whatchefswant.com. Welcome to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast. Now here's your host, Kayla Ellis. Hello, hello everybody. Okay, well welcome to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast hosted by myself, Kayla Ellis. I am super grateful. Brandon Styll has put me onto this through Nashville Restaurant Radio. I did a really quick interview with him that was awesome and it went so well that he asked me to come back and I'm really grateful for it. So I am interviewing some bartenders throughout Nashville. We're having a good time. This is the second episode in the series. I'm getting to talk with Preston Denny.

03:16Now he has worked in a handful of bars throughout Nashville over the years. Currently you can find him. He's just getting started back at Dream Hotel. I believe today is actually his first day back there. So definitely go see him, say hi to him, get a drink from him. If you wanna find me, you can find me at Oak Steakhouse or Okoo here in Nashville, but I am the beverage director for Indigo Road. And so I do a handful of different bars and work with a handful of bartenders. Very grateful to get to do what I do. And because of what I do, I get to talk with amazing people. So we're gonna get into it today with Preston and I'm really grateful that he made the time today to speak with me and share his story, share his insight. He is an incredible bartender. So if you guys are looking to up your game or who you want to aspire to be, he is the example. He is definitely one of the best bartenders in Nashville. And even if you're not a bartender, go get a drink with him, okay?

04:17Just see the man in action, see what it's all about. And if you like what you hear throughout this series, I want you to know you can thank SuperSource as one of our sponsors. Jason Ellis is one of the coolest guys. We share a last name, but I don't know him. He might be in my family. We might be distant cousins, but he definitely treats me like family. He comes into our bars and takes amazing care of our washing machines, our dishwashers, and our sinks in the back. Anytime I've needed something, he can show up same day most of the time. There was a time when I had, apparently there was glass clogging up some of our pipes and lines in the washing machine behind our bar. And we didn't know that glass had broken inside of there. It was in a place where you couldn't see it, couldn't spot it, couldn't get it out. And he was able to diagnose the problem really quickly as soon as we saw like a streaky glass. He came in, got the job done.

05:19So seriously, Jason, thank you for doing such a good job and making sure that bartenders look good. He's making restaurants style out so that they can give you the best product and give you a delicious, clean, healthy environment to eat in. And if it weren't for him, you know, your glass wouldn't be looking so nice. So thank you so much, Jason. And thank you for supporting us through this podcast. I'm really excited to get to share this with you guys. So without further ado, welcome Preston Denny. ["Preston Denny Theme Song"] I'm hitting the chord, so just let that one go. And that way we can kind of get power so it's not just me thinking. But yeah, I am so grateful that you're doing this okay, my man. Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah, so audience, this is Preston Denny.

06:22He is one of my favorite bartenders. No, stop it. I mean, you're dope. You need to acknowledge it, you're dope. You were the head bartender at Patterson House. I wouldn't quite call myself a head, but yeah, we were up there. Okay, okay. So we were a very cohesive unit that all act kind of like a group. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a cohesive group. That is impressive and sometimes hard to achieve in the bar world. Yeah, it's tough, but it was a beautiful thing. I've still have yet to experience another thing like it. Wow, I've got a lot of respect for Patterson House because honestly, they are pretty responsible for making the craft cocktail resurgence happen here in Nashville. Oh yeah, I always liked leading with that when I was my spiel there. It's like you kind of got the cocktail scene started in Nashville. For real. And it's still going very, very strong. It's kind of still one of the top bars in the city. It's impressive still to this day. It's truly impressive. It's a little bit more of that speakeasy style leaning into more of a New York tradition.

07:27So when you see the front of this building, it's not screaming to you that you're walking into a bar. Nope, nope. It's always my favorite thing. People are like, oh, it's hard to find. It was easy to find. It wouldn't be a speakeasy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, before we get too far into some of the nitty gritty stuff of some of my favorite places that you've worked and some of the stuff that I want to talk with you about, I want to say real quick, we've got a couple cocktails in front of us. Yes, ma'am. So we're starting it off right. So forgive me. I know you have a pretty adventurous palette. I believe you're a big fan of Diplomatico. I'm a huge fan. Okay. It's my favorite rum. I thought so. And so this is the Diplomatico Pot Still Three. Oh, that's wonderful. And this is mixed with a kina kina. So it's kind of like a rum Manhattan, but I did do a little bit of demerara. It's not super complicated, but super tasty, hopefully. I love simplicity. It's my favorite. And a clink. Cheers, my friend. Cheers to you. Oh, that is wonderful.

08:32I love that. I'll take it. I'll take it. That doesn't suck. That doesn't suck. I love it. So I want to hear from you. What got you into bartending? Arrogance. Arrogance and ego for me. I was really, I was a late bloomer in the industry. I probably started serving around in my early 20s, maybe 22, 23. Okay. And it was at a Logan's Roadhouse. And I remember looking at the bartender and I was like, I bet I could do that. It seems pretty doable for me. Life just kind of went on. I ended up leaving Logan's. Ended up at a Jay Alexander's. Okay. And they call their bartenders pub keeps. So then when I saw them doing their thing and I was like, I could be a pub keep pretty easily. But I'm a firm believer in like, your opportunities will be given to you. You don't necessarily have to ask, which is a horrible thing to believe. Ask for the things that you want, people. So then I decided I was going to hang. Someone approached me about it and they were like, hey, would you like to be a pub keep? And I was like, yeah, sure.

09:34I was there for about three years, maybe four years, five years total. Then ball kind of got rolling after that. I really just found a love for bartending at that point. So then my goal switched just for being very self-centered in my own goal about I want to be a good bartender to like, I want to be an example of someone who looks like me and what being a bartender should be. Or can be. For the audience that's just listening in, what do you mean by a bartender that looks like you? Well, there's not a lot of African-American representation in bartending, especially when you get to the craft level, which is kind of alarming to me, because if you look at the history of bartending, which is kind of convoluted in itself anyway, we do have a hand in the establishment of bartending, especially as you see it today. So it's kind of like one of those things where it kind of got lost in the shuffle. So I always imagined myself gigantic billboards and books and stuff like that. But at the same time, I also want someone to see me bartending. And then feel like, hey, I can do that too, the same way I felt when I saw someone else doing bartending.

10:36And I feel like it's kept away from them or it's hidden away from them. Who did you see bartending that spoke to you? One of my good friends, his name is Gary Lyons, he's also actually in Nashville as well. And he moved here from Baton Rouge, and I'm sorry Gary if I said the wrong city, but he's from Louisiana. And he was probably the first black bartender I've ever seen. And it was at Logan's, he came in after I got there too, which was even more alarming because I was already at that point where I was like, I can do that. And then I saw him doing it and I was like, oh, I can definitely do it now. There's no reason why I can't. There's space for you. Exactly, there's space for me. So as soon as I saw him, it was kind of like my first like, hey, black bartender, you can be a black bartender. Go make more black bartenders. That is just beautiful to me. It's scary how few people of color there are in craft cocktailing. Oh yeah, it is. And it doesn't have to be that way. Like there's opportunity, but there's also a hurdle. There's also a block you have to just kind of like, everyone has to get over.

11:38It's almost like a societal block almost. Everyone has to just be like, hey, we don't have to like gatekeep this. Like it can be open to anybody. What does that block look like? It kind of depends. And I thought a lot about this. I feel like decidedly in general, we have this way of looking at black people and not being more accepting, you know? And not even just as like a racial aspect. I mean more so in a cultural aspect where people think that American culture is the only culture and you're born in America. But then you look at people from the South have their own culture, people from the North have their own culture. And black people's culture was very influenced by things that happened in the South, but had a little spin on it, you know? So then you take those aspects of it and you try to, you know, want people to assimilate. And we're very like, a lot of black people are very resistant to assimilate to the American ideal. You know, understandably, of course. Yeah. But also it's one of those things where you don't want to assimilate, but you also want to keep your worth of self.

12:42And then that has resisted a lot in corporate America. The word that comes to my mind is code switching. Code switching is a big thing. Yeah. Like, and even I've kind of dealt with that where people like say the whole thing, like, oh, you don't sound the way I expected. Or even when I was in a certain restaurant, I would try not to bash anybody, but in a certain restaurant I've had guests be like, oh, well, you know, you must be one of the good ones. And it's like, ugh, please don't say that to me. Yeah. And it's like, ugh, I don't like any of that. I'm just trying to do my job the best way possible here. It breaks my heart. You know, it's just kind of one of those things you, I try not to let too much of the things affect me too much anymore. Because if I did, I'd be in a rage every day. Like, every day. I think I'm in a rage every day. You know? It's how it feels. Yeah. Robert Chambers is someone we spoke to last time. And he was talking about being referred to as a black kid. He goes, they were surprised that the black kid is the one who put together their wine program.

13:46And he's our sommelier. Yeah. It's kind of like a performance thing. Like, just, are you, wow, look at you perform. I'm just so impressed. And I do get that to a different degree, completely different degree as a white woman. Oh, yeah. In the whiskey world in particular. But just about with anything, I mean, I've had people try to get me fired and tell me that they don't respect me because I'm a woman. Just flat out. Just, just, uh. And that's it. That's the only reason. It's just like, she's a woman. She's telling me what to do. And actually said that verbatim. I don't respect you as my boss because you're a woman. That's disgusting. It's crazy. It's kind of, and the way it was dealt with was just kind of to laugh it off. And not by, I just kind of had to take it with a grain of salt because I know that, especially at that time when I was still developing my voice and developing my expertise, there wasn't really room for me to make mistakes. And if I did make a mistake, I was absolutely hammered for it.

14:48Oh, yeah. And any time that someone would say, oh, I don't respect you or something like that, or I hate Kayla, it was a consistent daily thing with a couple of teammates of just like, they hated me. And they would make it kind of funny. They would just like laugh about it. And management at that particular location would just be like, isn't that funny? No. That relation, that dynamic. And it's not. It's not funny. Because I can't even remember who the comedian was, but he kind of equated discrimination to a dripping faucet. And that's kind of where we get to now, where the faucet's been dripping for so long. And it was just been dripping and dripping and dripping. You never really notice it when you're doing things. But then when you're sitting and peaceful and quiet, you start hearing that drip. It's just constantly just wrapping against the sink. And that's when it started really to annoy you. And it just kind of builds up over time. And after so many quote unquote jokes, you can't really take it anymore. When you had to push back and be like, hey, look, this is affecting me negatively.

15:50And I don't like it. That's an incredible analogy. Because there are times when the sink is just on. Yeah, exactly. Someone just flipped the handle, and it's flowing water. And you're just getting, you're drowning in it. And that's when you have to, hey, shut the faucet off. Everyone's quick to shut the faucet off when it's running. But it's always. I thought you were about to say something else. Shut the. Am I allowed to? You are. I'm a bit of a loose cannon sometimes. Yeah, I said, I was quoting someone. But I did have the F-bomb in the last episode. I did catch that. I was like, oh. I know. I was like. You got rid of one. It didn't get bleeped. And I was like, well, all right. This is what it is. I mean, hey, we're bartenders. Exactly. This is the world that we're in every day. We live life on the edge, it is. So I mean, we can keep digging deeper into this. Because I mean, there's so much to dig into. But you as a bartender are incredible in every facet. Thank you. You're a bad-ass bartender.

16:52Thank you. Yeah. I don't want to reduce the conversation to one aspect. Because I just think that in every aspect, you are a consummate professional. You make people feel welcome. That is the main goal for me. Yeah. That is always the main goal for me. Hospitality first. Yeah. It's kind of like the whole mixologist argument. People are always like, oh, you're a mixologist now. I'm like, I don't love that term. I prefer bartender. That means half of my job is also talking to you and making sure you're feeling safe and a welcome guest. Yeah. I was talking with Brandon Styll, but he's the gentleman who runs Nashville Restaurant Radio and has been so wonderful to let us here into this space and create a platform for bartenders. So I really am grateful to him and respect him for that. Thanks, Brandon. Yeah, thanks, Brandon. But we were talking about the idea of mixologist. And I was talking about, so the word mixologist, it comes from 1856.

17:56That was one of the first times it shows up in writing. And when we lost the art of the bar after the prohibition, the word mixologist wasn't really in use. We didn't have many mixologists in the States after that. It was mainly mobsters and teenagers running our bars. So when mixologists came back into rotation, it was kind of designated to the hipsters. Yes, yes. And mustachioed, suspended-wearing bartenders. With the plaid shirts rolled all the way up to their shoulders. Yes, yes. You know the guys. And hey, nothing wrong. Nothing wrong with it. I actually am loving a lot of those guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time I talk with one of them, I'm like, you're a really cool guy. Game recognizes game. It does. It does. You make a good drink. Can't help it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the word mixology, it's not a dirty word. No, no. But it feels like a dirty word because there's so much snootiness around it. Yes, a lot of pretension just thrown to the top of the word. And it's like, I don't want. You want it to be comfortable. Yeah. And I'm always very uncomfortable rising myself up to put someone else down.

19:02And I always feel like mixology does that a little bit to some extent. Yeah, that is true. Well, the word does anyway. It can. And it has. I like to say that mixology is a tool in my belt. That's good. I'm a bartender first. And mixology is a tool in my belt to help me be a better bartender. I really like that. Yeah, it helps. So it's just like, OK, which tool do I need right now for this guest? And it's like, OK, well, I'm going to whip the mixology tool out. Time to be a mixologist and wow on something they've never seen before. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And it's different things for different people. A lot of people, there's different types of mixology, too. We can get into the chemistry of it. And every time a bartender is playing with a cocktail, I say this is like my motto for Gospel of Cocktail. This is kind of my rallying cry, I guess. But I say every cocktail, every time. It's artistry, history, chemistry, creating, community. And that's kind of like my ethos. Because you've got the type of mixology where it's like you're mixing chemicals.

20:07You know the heart of these different spirits. You know how they're going to play together. You're playing with the weight and the viscosity. You can get into some of the gastronomy of it, too, if you want to. But then you've got the history of every individual spirit, the history of the bartender that goes into it, and then the art and the craft behind it as well. And all of that is just about getting that clink of the glass. Exactly. And getting people to understand not necessarily going over their head all the time about it. Just kind of bringing it down to their level a little bit. When it's like you're my guest, but I also want to teach you something about this. At Patterson, one of my good friends used to always say, well, this is a learning bar first. Like guests are going to come in, because they're going to come in off Google, and they're going to hear about it through word of mouth, and they're going to be like, you get a good drink there, and that's awesome. But also at the same time, if you can teach them something on the way out, teach them something on the way out. So you also have to be on top of what you learn as well, just in case your guest comes in, and you want to make sure they learn a little something while they're there. It enhances the experience. I mean, absolutely.

21:09And then they come in and aren't just asking for the same thing they got last time, a rum and Coke, or whatever their- Vodka not sweet. Vodka, yeah. Yeah, vodka not sweet, or just straight up vodka soda. Oh yeah. Or a Tito's and vodka. Had a guest tell me I make the best one in the city. I bet he was right. I bet he was accurate. When you're talking with technique, when you're talking about technique, what are some things that you prize yourself on and things that you feel like you could work on or things that bartenders need to work on as a whole? I would say, as far as technique goes, I feel like it was kind of like the bartender thing. We always check each other's shake out. Everyone likes to watch each other shake. Yeah, true. Like, oh, this person could do this differently about their shake. I feel like I've always had a decent shake. As long as I've worked in bartending, so I feel like my shake is pretty solid. Even to the point now where it's become a bit of a dance. So it's become even like a crowd pleaser where people are like, oh, look at him, he's dancing.

22:10And I'm like, all right, well, I feel some type of way about this, but also thank you. Yes, I am. I kind of am dancing. You got your tap shoes on. Yeah, you got, yeah, exactly. I'm just getting it in my own zone and everyone's like, look at his shoulders go. So it's always a fun thing in that instance. I get that too, a little bit of like the, like, oh, I can't tell you how many times I've heard, oh, is that your workout today? Oh, yeah, is that your workout? No, that's how I know Shake Weight was a scam. That's what I always say to people. Like, that's how I know. Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah, I have tons of one liners. You can have them all. Yeah, you gotta have them in your pocket. Always, just at the ready. But I would say like, as far as like what, the city's pretty dope. Everyone's got their own little style to how they do things. And everyone has their own way of going about achieving a similar goal, you know, which is ultimately making a really good drink and making a very unique drink. So I'll say like, technique-wise, my shake is dope. I can just say that. Hell yeah. I'm confident in saying that. But I would say as a city, and things that I could work on, I want to be as creative as possible. And sometimes you kind of get like, almost like a writer's block, you know?

23:12Where you're like, oh, I've tried this cocktail, but I don't want to completely emulate that cocktail. I want to like do my own thing. And then you kind of just hit like a roadblock almost where it's like, I don't know what I can do to elevate this any more than it's already been there. It's hard. It's really tough. Because there's already a thousand cocktails. There's probably over hundreds of thousands of cocktails out there now at this point. Hundreds of thousands, millions probably. And in this column, I was reading an article on, I think it was a liquor.com maybe. I don't remember which one. It was one of the big websites. It was just popped up because it grabbed my eye where it was basically talking about, you can't trademark cocktails. And I was like, well, yeah, I guess you really can't trademark a cocktail. This was years ago when I read this. But ultimately it was like, how can you prove that you created something before someone created something on the other side of the city? Because cocktails are only spread by it being passed around throughout the states, basically. And just being learned from different people and being passed around. And I was like, well, yeah, I guess that makes sense. It's really tough to do something like that. But I always just try to keep a lookout on the city if I have an idea about something.

24:15And I go to one of my favorite bars and I'm like, oh, well, can't do that one anymore. That one's been done now. Checked it off the list. Checked it off the list. Yeah, it can be disheartening. I tell a lot of bartenders, so my rule of thumb with cocktail creation at our bars is that we do it together as a team. Good plan. And what I often see, or what I have seen in the past at places I've worked, is that every bartender kind of brings their best cocktail to the table, and then we all taste, and then those cocktails get picked, and then that creates your menu. I don't have a problem with that in theory because everyone comes up with the best cocktails and it's just the best cocktails that hit the table. My issue is more with the fact that a lot of times two bartenders will bring two of the same style of cocktail that's hitting the same palette.

25:15Yes. So for example, two shaken cocktails may or may not have gin in it. Or even maybe it's a completely different base spirit, but the sweetness level is the exact same. Very similar, yeah. And now you're having two guests with the same palette being reached and we're not hitting the whole audience of our clientele, of our guests. Exactly. So I try to create a formula. I've got an outline of what I call the quote unquote basic bitch cocktail. Love it. And I say that with love because I am one of them. I enjoy a basic bitch cocktail as well. There's nothing wrong with it. They're so tasty. And if you do it right, it can be an elevated cocktail. Exactly. It doesn't have to be lame. It can be really cool. It can be so good. Yeah. It can be so good. And so that'll be the top cocktail on the menu. It's gonna be the approachable one, usually the most cost effective one. And then we work our way down a little bit more adventurous as you go and then switch to only spirit based. So no juicy, it's definitely still refreshing, but spirit forward.

26:19Yeah, most definitely. And then every bartender claims a category. And that way no one's making the same thing and we can actually edit each other's drinks and say like, how do we get this to the best version of this cocktail? I like that idea. It's been super helpful. That's how I've been doing it for, I guess like the past eight years or so. And I think that it creates the most whole menu. I think too that when bartenders get intimidated by the fact that there's nothing new under the sun, you're never gonna make a cocktail better than the old fashioned. Oh no, it is good. And it lasts for a reason. Yeah. Like it's a reason it's been around for hundreds of years. It is a delicious cocktail. Same with like a mint julep or even something like my favorite is the last word. Like the last word, yeah. My goal is to make a cocktail better than the last word. I might not make it. I probably won't make it, but I'm gonna keep trying. And it's beautiful to keep trying. Oh yeah. But the idea of something being better is always subjective.

27:20And it's kind of like based on the mood that you're in or the feeling of like the heat in the air and like how much do you need this to be served on ice or what's the objective of the cocktail? Yeah, and that was always a thing. That was my favorite thing at Patterson because we always kind of had our own different like rubrics of how we wanted to go about a cocktail. But then we'd all come to like gather, try to help each other and kind of like, maybe you missed this aspect of it. One of the things that always kind of got me with is like, ah, it could be a little bit brighter, which in my beginning phases of bartending, I was like, I have no idea what that means. And I wish somebody would just explain it to me. And then finally, one day I just kind of just clicked and I was like, okay, make it brighter. Give it a little like, citrusy pop somewhere. Just kind of make it stand out a little bit more. And I'm like, okay, now I understand that, but it helped me create cocktails better because now I'm looking at other facets of it that I don't necessarily look for or I wasn't thinking about when I was creating it. But now I'm like, okay, well, it is great. Let's make sure it's extra balanced and maybe put a little wrinkle here and there.

28:21So that way it's not so straightforward, but also has a little extra, you know? Yeah, you don't want it to taste muddy. You want to taste every individual flavor. Exactly. But at the same time, you don't want it to be incongruent. You want everything to blend. Exactly, you still want it to be one flavor, but also nuanced enough where you can taste all the flavors, you know? I love that description because I like, so brighter is a good one. I'm always looking for fat in cocktails. I'm looking for weight. Yeah. That's usually my top complaint in a cocktail is like, this is missing the roundness. I need something. Exactly. I need some weight in there. You want it to coat around a little bit. Yeah. You want it to feel in the full mouth, the full mouth feel. Yeah, what are the tricks and tips from your experience that have been like, okay, I need this. What's your back pocket trick to be like, okay, this achieves that goal? For weight, sugar. And everyone, it's kind of like a dirty word to say sugar. People don't like sugar. But sugar goes such a long way in improving a cocktail.

29:23Like even when this cocktail we have here, that little gem, you know it's there because the body is there now. Yeah. And that was one of the things, one of the initial things I learned. You're like, if it's a little thin, put something in it that has weight. And more than likely, that's gonna be sugar. Sugar always has weight. Especially like, even you're like, you really like simple sugars. Even just a little dash of simple sugar will take your drink to another level and not necessarily sweeten it all the way up. Yeah. Like an eighth of an ounce, a quarter ounce, it helps a lot. Just give it that weight. Just give it a little bit of weight. Yeah. And Dolan Blanc. And Dolan Blanc, yeah. Dolan Blanc's a block-saver. Well, that's what I was gonna say is that sugar comes in a lot of forms. It can be in the form of a liqueur or an orange vermouth. I mean, orange vermouth. An orange liqueur. It can be in some kind of, like a fattier rum. Like Guyanese rums. Oh, yeah. From like El Dorado, Lemon Heart. Full weight. Full weight. Just weight. Those, they're often called English-style rums, but because of colonization.

30:25So I call them Guyanese rums because they're out of Guyana and it's a Guyanese style. I love that about you. So I got some problems in my head and this is just what it is. So yeah, you've gotta call it what it is. So that style gives you a lot of sugar without sweet. Exactly, exactly. And that's the fat that I'm looking for, yeah. And I really love Amaro's for that reason. Amaro as well, yeah. Really love Amaro's for that reason because when you taste them by themselves, you feel it. You're like, all right, it's kind of very similar to almost like cough syrup, the fiscousness of some of them where you're like, oh yeah, this is great. And then when you add it to the cocktail, the sweet kind of goes away, but that herbal still kind of comes through sometimes. And it's like, this is what I needed, but didn't necessarily know I needed until I put it in there. It's important to try. Let's tell the bartenders who maybe aren't super familiar with Amari what an Amaro is. An Amaro kind of keep it kind of somewhat simple. Italian liqueur, very herbal. So all your like most famous ones, Montenegro or- Love Montenegro.

31:28Love Montenegro, it's my favorite shot. Averna, all these different ones. They're just basically secret Italian recipe liqueurs, essentially. And then it could be up to like 40 different ingredients and you're not gonna know any of them. They're very like tightly kept family secrets for the most part. And but they're really just great enhancers of cocktails. Like especially like your Spirit Forward cocktails that you don't wanna add extra sugar to. It's always a fun wrinkle to throw a little of Amaro in there. The story with Amaro, I love, I love Amaro. I am definitely kind of an Amaro slut, like for lack of a better term. Because, so Amaro actually translates literally to the word bitter. And so very similar to vermouth in a cocktail, but a little bit more fat, a little bit more weight. Sometimes a little higher proof. And so it's gonna be a better intensifier and it's going to round out your cocktail in a really nice way. If you've ever used bitters in a cocktail, which I'm sure you guys all have.

32:32Everyone uses Angostura of course. Ango is life. Ango is life. Regan's, Gary Regan's orange bitters. There's so many great bitters that you can use in a cocktail and what that does is kind of like your seasoning on a plate of food. Exactly. Like you would never eat unseasoned chicken. Never. If you're a sane human being. Oh yeah. So you've gotta have the salt and pepper and the seasoning and there are some seasonings that like salt and pepper that are just base intensifiers going to make your plate taste delicious. And there's some seasonings like Cajun or cardamom that are gonna add a new and lifting flavor to your overall dish. Most definitely. Bitters are the same. So like your Angostura and your Regan's orange are gonna be more like the salt and pepper. And then you've got things like Peychaud's or maybe rhubarb bitters or something like that. That's just gonna add that new flavor that that's a lifting bitter. And it may lift a little hint of whatever you tasted in that whiskey.

33:32It'll take lift that like peach flavor, whatever, what have you, and lift that to the surface. Amaro is like that, but now you're dealing with something that's a potable bitter. It's something like you could drink it by itself. Yeah, and I do. I sure do. I do. 100%. So yeah, if you're playing with cocktails and you're looking at menus and you wanna start getting creative and you're a little bit scared if you're not a seasoned bartender, if you've not got super into mixology, start with your basics. Start with a Manhattan and make a black Manhattan. Switch out the vermouth for an Amaro. Or do like a margarita ratio and skip the orange liqueur and put in an Amaro. Yeah, it really will impress you how much you've changed the cocktail, which is one ingredient. Like it will flip the whole thing on its head. It's such a beautiful thing. That's why I really got into cocktails, the passion of it. I can make so many things with two ingredients and no one will even know that I've done like a thousand different things in that essence.

34:33It's such an amazing thing. Just that one little Lego piece that you can kind of plug in and plug out. Exactly. Death and Co. phrases it. Death and Co. is a bar based in New York and they've got more now throughout the states. But they are responsible for a lot of people's careers, if we're honest. It's an essential book, by the way. Totally. Their book is an essential if you're gonna be in the bartending industry. I liked Cocktail Kodak's. Yeah, it's Cocktail Kodak's. I haven't got their new one. I haven't either. Now I'm at the point of like, now forgive me Death and Co., but I'm at the point where I'm like feeling the commercialization of mixology. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't want your third book. Yeah. Just sew it out. I mean, I'm totally, yeah. I will 100% dig into that book. But Cocktail Kodak's is the second of their three in the series and they're awesome books to get y'all. It will really help you with your cocktail creation. But they call this style Mr. Potato Head. Yes, potato heading, yes.

35:34Yeah, because you can take one piece out and plug another piece in. And it's a great place to start if you're a bartender getting into it. It was, with some of my favorite bartenders, they are really good at potato heading and I was never really great. I was more of like a conceptual bartender. I would say, I want something that tastes like a cinnamon roll. So I'm gonna try to make something that tastes like a cinnamon roll and then we go from there. Or I would have two flavors that I really wanted where I'm like, I want Campari and banana. So then I would like really try to work something in to make a Campari banana cocktail that I liked a lot. But I want to have a lot of bartenders I worked with that would just hand me a glass, legally. Everything I'm talking about is legally of course. But they would just hand me a glass and I would look at it and it would be like a weird yellow brownish color and I would taste it. I'm like, this is phenomenal. What is this? It's like, ah, I just grabbed two things and I'm gonna like kind of work together and see if I can put something together with this. And I was like, that is amazing. I don't understand how your brain works to do that in a way. Like I can do it once the cocktail is made but to use it as a base almost is fascinating to me. It's so much fun. I've played for a while now with, I guess the first way that I got into cocktail creation was with a storyline.

36:43Like I wanted to tell a story first. And usually I'd either pick a spirit and find how do I tell this story and then bring that to life with the cocktail name and with the ingredients that I choose. And then other times I'll be wanting to create a story of a person and kind of go backwards. Like, well this person was huge in the bootlegging industry and so how do I tell that story? And so maybe I pick an overproof or pre-prohibition style base and then play with it that direction. But then as I got further along, I started dealing with what we were talking about earlier, the pain and the heartache of being like, how do I elevate anything anymore? What do I do? It's rough. And I just feel bored with the Mr. Potato Head style. It's like, oh man, I'm just doing, like everything's the same.

37:44Yeah. And it's really rough when you start to like, you finally feel like you had the breakthrough. You know, you're like, all right, I got it. I've done it. I've made the cocktail. And then you realize you made the cocktail before. Yeah. And it's like, oh, well, nevermind then. I've done that so many times. It hurts. That was a challenge for some of the places I've worked, like I thought I came up with something great. And then we would check the database and it's like, oh no, that was made back in 2004. Yeah. Well, nevermind then. Yeah, there's nothing new under the sun. There's nothing new. I think what's fun about that particular challenge, this is a little bit like my cocktail theory, is that instead of trying to innovate and create something brand new, never done before, I've instead tried to see it as, how can I problem solve? Yes. So which guest am I trying to meet? Who am I envisioning for this cocktail? And then I've got a sandbox. You know, we talk about like the sandbox, playing your sandbox. Yeah, yeah. Two things that I always reference with this, Pablo Picasso and GK Chesterton.

38:50So I'm gonna bring it together, I promise. I was just saying, yeah. You're like, okay, lady. That is a unique comparison. Let's see where this goes. You're just talking now. But so like Pablo Picasso, everyone recognizes him for his Favism and for like the crazy, you know, pieces that's like, oh, her nose is over here. He did classical realism. Yes, he did. He was a classical artist. And so he knew how to make pieces similar to Michelangelo. He absolutely beautifully and effectively created pieces where it was realistic. He was very familiar with that style. So when he created Favism, when he jumped in the tracks and did this, he broke the rules because he knew what the rules were. And so I have a pet peeve with bartenders that are like, I just wanna do this because it's not being done. Yeah. Yeah, there's a shift where you go too far to, where you go too experimental. Like who is it for?

39:50Yeah, who's gonna enjoy this? Is it just for your ego? Exactly. Exactly. Good for you then, bud. Yeah. Claps up, you're gonna make a cocktail. Here's a cookie. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's kind of a, in particular, so I see it with a lot of like stirred cocktails with juice in it. Oh yeah. I don't mind it if you know who you're doing it for. Exactly. If you're intentional. Exactly. But I'm seeing it so often now that it's like, it's not intentional. No. They're just like, I just wanted to do something different. Yeah, I just wanted to step outside the box. Yeah. So make sure when you're stepping outside the box, you're still making a really good cocktail that makes sense. Absolutely. It doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly. Micah Brame, somebody who I worked with early in my career, he always says, if it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. And I know he didn't come up with that phrase, but he's the one who I heard it in my ear ringing forever and ever and ever. Yeah. But yeah, if you can't make something that makes sense, and if it's not tasting great, it's not gonna sell, it's just not effective.

40:54Like who are you making it for? Exactly. It's just to build up your ego. Yeah. So you gotta know the rules to know why you're breaking them. So that's the first part. That's the Pablo Picasso reference. I like that. The second one is GK Chesterton always says that, not always says, in one of his articles that he wrote, he said that his favorite part of every painting is the frame. And it's not because he just really freaking loves frames, it's because on a blank canvas, you could create anything, right? The possibilities are endless, but you're always held in by those four lines. You're always held in by this frame. Okay. And so what he's saying is that, creativity is amazing. To be creative, to be someone who digs down deep and puts together something beautiful, that's so cool. However, if you're just creating without an agenda, without a goal, without some kind of barrier holding you in, then how creative is it?

41:59Because there was nothing stopping you from just being like, I might just poop on this canvas and call it art. You know what? I relate to that. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. I am a big fan of structure to an extent. It's great to be as creative as possible, but at the same time, you still have to hit some parameters. You have to hit certain notes, you know? And yeah, I was skeptical at first, but yeah, you tied those two together. I'm quite impressed. If people can just stick with me, I promise. Just gotta see it through, just gotta see it through. So what are some of the boundaries that you like to create for yourself that helps you achieve that, a good cocktail? Biggest one is balance. Like, you have to make a balanced cocktail. You can't have too much of anything. I think that's the main boundary you almost have to have. It's not even really a boundary. It's like, this is like your foundation. Foundation. Yeah, you have to make a balanced cocktail first. And then, yeah, you've already kind of hit the note on it where it's like, you also have to sell the cocktail. We are in the business where we have to sell things. You know, and it's kind of, no one wants to be a salesman per se, especially like a lot of people who want to be more on the creative side, but you have to sell cocktails.

43:07So if you go too outside the mindset of like, I'm going to make a good cocktail that sells, you kind of get lost and you kind of make things that are probably a little almost too adventurous. Yeah. And it's not necessarily a good cocktail. It's just an adventurous cocktail. But when you kind of like bring it back down, it's like, well, how can I sell this to somebody? Then it becomes a little bit easier to kind of like, okay, I can make a good, better, well-rounded cocktail if I can make it with the mindset of I need to make sure that I'm making this to be enjoyed by other people. Yeah. Like by a larger group of other people. That's the hospitality part, I think. It is, it is. You don't invite someone to your house and then immediately just throw like, you know, I don't know, the Armagnac at them. Yeah, yeah. You kind of want to ease them into it if they don't know what they're getting into, you know? So you kind of just give them baby steps a lot of the times. Yeah, invite them in. Invite them in. Yeah, when we make something for someone, of course, sales are how we talk about it because we are a business.

44:07We are trying to make money. This is a career and a job. But sales is just a marker for the effectiveness of seeing our guests. Yeah, exactly. It's just, how do we, do we make, do we make someone feel seen? I try to have one adventurous, like bartender's bartender's cocktail. Always great to have those. Yeah. Always great to have those because it is like, it's still your way of like flexing your muscle a little bit where it's like, we still get to be as creative as we can. Proving your clout a little bit. Exactly. Yeah. But also letting the bartenders feel seen too. Exactly. Yeah, because we, I mean, I know when I go out to a bar, I'm taking care of my bartender. I'm tipping, I have a problem. Oh, I think we have the same problem. I am a notorious over-tipper. It's sickening. I don't even like calling it over-tipping. No, you're right. Yeah, I will never, I will have the worst service in the absolute world and it will still be like 30, 40%.

45:08Exactly. I struggle. I tip like sometimes 50, 100%. Oh yeah. Oh God, especially if I'm like in and out and it's like, you know, probably have like two, three rounds or something like that. Yeah, yeah. I will definitely like, I will just throw the whole check back at you. Exactly, I'll throw the whole check back at you. Yeah. It depends on, like there's, no matter how much I've spent, like if I spent five bucks on a beer, my minimum is probably gonna be five to $10 of a tip. Oh yeah. I won't tip less than that. Oh yeah. One of my favorite dive bars, I would, I was, especially at the time where I was working multiple jobs, I would go in, I would have a drink, I would have one high life, one for net. So I knew my total every time and I would still probably tip like 20 bucks on top of that. That is not a $20 total by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like closer to like maybe like 200% where I was at, so I was like, but it's also, I respected those people a lot and I wanted to make sure they felt appreciated and I had it, so why not? Like that's the whole point, you know? Yeah. It's hospitality both ways in a way for me. Oh yeah. Yeah, so it's like, I will make sure that we are also taken care of.

46:08We have to take care of each other. Oh yeah, and that's what I love about the city more than anything. Like there's, it is, bartending is competitive. Like bartending is very competitive where we always want to like one up the next person. Like there's been multiple times I've gone to other bars and I've seen a cocktail that looks very similar to a cocktail that I've made before at a different bar and I was like, oh, well that's interesting, but I also don't take it to heart. I also want to make sure that those people are taken care of because they're doing their job the same job that I do and everyone's valid. That's what I always like to say. Everyone's job is valid. So no matter what bar I go to, that bartender who's behind the bar making drinks for whoever's in the building, they're valid. Absolutely. Like they need to be appreciated just as much as I should feel appreciated. Yeah, because if you're slinging drinks, we recognize each other. We see each other. Oh yeah, that job is hard. It's not easy. That job is hard. I've struggled with the idea of like working on Broadway. I don't think I could do it. Like I'm a pretty good bartender, I would say. I don't think I could do to that level where it's literally just people in and out, quick conversation, not even a conversation really.

47:11I mean, I know you could do it. I'm just gonna tell you that. If you need that little encouragement, you 100% could do it. I think the more taxing part that a lot of us know if you're directly in the industry is the fact that it's the 3 a.m., 4 a.m., 5 a.m. work days that you're not leaving until about five in the morning and the Coke. Let's just be real. There's so much out there. There's so much. Like when I first moved to Nashville, my good friend, because I was trying to get into a different, I was based in Franklin. I worked at Grey's in Graze on Main in downtown Franklin. And honestly, if we talk a little bit about the trajectory of the craft cocktail scene in Nashville, definitely Patterson House was at the top of that list. And then there was probably a season where maybe Pinewood Social took the gauntlet.

48:14There's a couple of different bars. And now it's kind of, it's almost like a statehood. There's like a handful of bars that you can go to and know that they're at the top of the tier. There's so many great bars now in the city. Yeah. Amazing. It's incredible. I'm so happy to see it. See me too. And there was a certain point in time, and it was before I ever got there, unfortunately, that Grey's was one of those bars that was capable of being in that top tier. Unfortunately, it was about six months before I ever worked there. No. And they kind of fell apart as it happens. It's almost like bands breaking up, like as soon as, like the infighting in a band. Right, you change the bass guitar, and you think it's not gonna be a big deal, but it's a humongous deal. Or like someone starts dating someone in the band, and like, oh, that's the end of the band. End's over now. It's a death knoll. So yeah, when I came into that situation, it was definitely repair, reconstruction that I was doing. And so we brought it back to life, and I felt good about what I did while I was there.

49:17But yeah, it was crazy to see the kind of transitions that happened over that time period. And then after Grey's, I did Obie Joyful, which is right next door. And it's one of the first whiskey bars in downtown Franklin. So when I switched to Nashville, I was coming from this community that was pretty tight-knit. And one of my really good friends, one of my best friends, he was like, Kayla, just so you know, you are too old to develop a coke habit. I was like, yes, heard. So when I came to Nashville, I was like, I need to be very aware of the company I keep. Exactly. And unfortunately on Broadway, I do think it's kind of a survival technique. Okay, guys, I'm gonna hop in real quick just to tell you guys about one of our partners here, one of our sponsors that absolutely goes above and beyond in both taking care of our industry and taking care of the world around us, Compost Co.

50:22So Compost Co. is an incredible group. They have a mission statement of sustainable waste solutions and also better growing. So they wanna do a lot more to help with soil success. If we don't have healthy soil, then you're not gonna have healthy plants. And so this absolutely uplifts farmers, gardeners, landscapers and builders in so many different markets. So if you want to connect with Compost Co., you need to go to compostcompany.com and you can check out who and how they can help you. They wanna make a better future, reducing waste and enriching soil is their mission. And they've been doing it since 2012, so I'm pretty sure you can trust them. It's been a long period where we've seen the industry take and take and take from the land and from the people around us and from the spaces. And it's not because we mean to, it's just because it's an outcome. When you eat a lot of food and drink a lot of good drinks, there's gonna be trash behind that.

51:24And so utilizing their services is going to better your space, better your environment and better the world around you. So it's definitely something worth looking into. They actually work with a lot of different groups. I'm actually, I was surprised to hear this, but they definitely are working with Farmers Market. They're working with Starbucks, Whole Foods. They've actually got to deal with the Hilton and Vanderbilt University. I mean, it looks like they're the people to know. If you wanna make a difference in this world and the lives around us, there's practical ways that we can make that happen. And Compost Co is one of those practical ways. So definitely check them out. Thank you guys for sponsoring us and for helping us with what we're trying to do. And I love that we're getting bartenders heard, taking care of people in this industry that serve you, but also taking care of the world that serves us, that gets our food on the table. So thank you Compost Co for doing what you're doing. I really do appreciate it and I think it's amazing. So cheers guys, thank you.

52:26And even when I remember working at Pinewood for a while, I'm glad you brought them up because it was such an integral part of my growth. But I remember my guests would be like, hey, do you like to party? And I would have to look at them like, oh, I love to party. And they'd be like, no, no, do you like to party? And they'd touch their nose. I'm like, oh no, I don't party like that. I just do regular shots and dancing. That's my type of party. I don't know, I don't like to do that type of party. I like to sleep. I like to sleep. I like to sleep, yeah. And that's the opposite of sleep. Exactly, exactly. Oh, that's so funny. Patterson House is where I met, I mean, I'm sorry. Pinewood Social is where I met you. And I was racking my brain for the longest time. I was like, where did me and Kayla first meet? Because it's like an internet thing now. Yeah, yeah. Because I read that people first meet. Yeah, true. And I was sitting there racking my brain for the longest time. I was like, it had to have been Pinewood because I've met 90% of the people I've met in this industry through Pinewood. Yeah. When I, I love Pinewood Social. I have for a long time.

53:27I don't, unfortunately, go out very often anymore because I'm just working so much. It's tiring. It's exhausting. It's too hard. It's too hard to go out. And if I go out, it's very unexpected and sporadic. It's just like the end of a late night and it's like, oh, let's go get a drink. And then everybody goes out. But I don't know any of the bartenders now at Pinewood, so it's kind of, it's a different community. Yeah. But the Pinewood that I fell in love with and that I knew was Eric Simmons. Yes, yeah. I don't know if you worked with him. I did not get a chance to work with him, but he was one of those people whose name just rang throughout years after the fact. Even to this day, his name would still get brought up. And I was like, I really should have met this guy. Yeah. Like a lot of people even tell me, like, you should have met this guy. He's doing cool stuff. He's in Chicago now and I'm not super close with him by any means, but he was just a bartender that I dearly loved and thought was dope. And he's doing some really cool things in Chicago. So good on him. And then one of my bar mentors, Justin Elliott.

54:30Oh, I love Justin. I love him too. I will go on record. Justin is one of the most impressive bartenders to watch in this city. It is so fascinating. I can't describe it. There is no wasted motion. Everything is crisp and perfect. It is my favorite. It's gorgeous. Love him. Such a beautiful process. He's one of those bartenders that made me want to be a bartender. Same, same. I remember working with him and I was like, I have to step my game up. I am nowhere near as good as enough as I should be at this point. He's amazing. I love him. He worked with me while I was at Graze on Main. So that's where I got to work with him in Cross Paths. Connecting points. Yeah, yeah. He is such a expert and a professional. He's kind of the guy that, so the Sazerac is the cocktail that made me want to be a bartender, I always say. Love that. And he was the one who trained me on it. And I was making it for a guest. I was still in training mode, so I technically wasn't allowed to make cocktails for guests.

55:32And here I was. We were very busy in a shift. He was slammed in the well and I was kind of shadowing him. And there was a position one right next to the well, a guest wanting a Sazerac, and I had just learned it that day. I'd made it before, but never learned it so beautifully as I did when I was working with him. Yes, yes. And so, because this is a classic that's close to his heart, but also every classic, he was very painstakingly careful to instruct me on the details. He's a real student of the game. Oh, 100%. He knows things. He knows things. He knows things. Like, he's still teaching me to this day and he's like really not even bartending anymore. It breaks my heart he's not bartending anymore, but good for him. Good for him, family life. Congratulations on the second one. He's got two kiddos. Yeah, yeah, congratulations. But yeah, so I was making this Sazerac for a guest. I kind of looked at him and everybody else was slammed, and I was like, can I make it for the guest?

56:33Because I wasn't supposed to. And he was like, he just nodded. And so I was like, okay, okay. And so I started making it. He straw-tastes it. And I have a thought that no matter what I would have made, there's a chance that I think he would have just tossed it just to like prove a point with me. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I understand the dynamic of squashing an ego before you can build up someone. It's important to something like that. Yeah, it's very important. But he straw-tasted it, and I straw-tasted it, and he goes, it's too thin, make it again. And in front of the guest tosses it out. And so I'm sitting there. And I guess we'll wait a long time for a craft cocktail, which these days they shouldn't. We've gotten better. Nashville's gotten better. We've gotten a lot better. Nashville, it took a while for us to get our speed down in Nashville, and we're still working on it in most of our places to achieve a craft cocktail effectively and quickly. Exactly.

57:33But a person will wait a long time for a bad craft cocktail. So when he dumped it, I saw the guest's eyes just like, come on. Luckily, actually, before he dumped it, I had the guest straw-taste the cocktail, too. And I made some joke about, at least your glass will be extra chilled, because I was chilling it with the absinthe and the ice. And the ice already in there. So I was like, at least your glass will be perfectly chilled. And so the guest kind of smirks, but is like, OK, let's see what happens. And I saw a little crack in Justin's face where he smiled. He was like, OK, I'll give you that one. That was smooth. A little save yourself action. That will buy you 10 seconds. And so I go to make it again, and I straw-taste it. And this time, I had the aha moment of, oh, that's what too thin is. I over-stirred it, and this is the fat that I was looking for. And you can't mess up with a Sazerac. No. Because you're not serving it on ice. No, no. Some people do. And I'm always going to drink a drink that's in front of me. So if you've been serving your Sazerac on ice, you know. I'll drink it, but you're wrong.

58:33Yeah, I'll drink it, but maybe you're wrong. Yeah. But yeah, so it has to be perfect because it's not going to sit on ice and change. It's not going to dilute any further. Exactly. It is what you, as you present it, it is what it is. It is what it's going to be. And so I do it again. I had this awakening moment, and then I serve it to the guest. And they say that it's the best cocktail they've ever had. Love that. And to this day, they still come and see me. Love that. This is, I don't know how many years ago. I guess it was like eight years ago or more. Yeah. So I really am grateful to Justin for that. But those cocktails that kind of wake you up, what are moments? You've mentioned a couple bartenders that meant a lot for you. What are moments for you that just stuck with you forever? I would say I've had a couple moments where it kind of touched me just as a person because it's really hard sometimes, especially, and this is in any job really, where you separate yourself from I'm employed and I am this person as I'm a bartender.

59:38I am an accountant. I am a teacher. And then you separate that stuff. It's like, but right now, I am myself. So I probably had a couple of those moments where I just had to step outside of myself and do something nice for somebody and not have to be like, I'm the bartender helping you. Like, no, I'm pressed in helping you. Oh, I like that. So I've had some of those moments, especially at Jay's. When I was at Jay's, I remember, this is probably my top story. It actually got me hired at Pinewood, whether they want to admit it or not. But this lady, she's with her family. She was like, I was actually still serving at the time too. So it was her and probably like six other people. And they were all kind of like having a decent time. They were all trying to like kind of keep it together, but she was still kind of like up and down for most of the time. So then it just so happened, she had like happened to be alone at the moment. So I was like, hey, how are you? Like, how was everything? Because especially, and you mentioned this in the last episode. With Robert, yeah. Yeah, it was just like, you kind of know everything that's going on at your table. And so I immediately was like, oh, well, did I forget the ketchup?

01:00:40I'm notorious for forgetting ketchup. Like, did I forget silverware? Like, what happened? Did I forget something? So I'm just checking in as a regular table check. And then she was like, oh, well, my husband left me. And now he's sending me like mean messages. So I was like, oh, well, that's not cool. So I like kind of chat with her a little bit. But then at the same time, I'm like, at the time at Jay's, we had like what's called closing period, right? It was one, it was your closing servers. It was like three people. It was right before shift change, working good double. So you had a whole section to yourself basically. So I was like, all right, I'll be right back. So I ran to the back, I look up a quote, and I wish I had a quote in front of me, but it was basically just kind of like, hey, people are mean to you sometimes, but at the same time, like you are still valued. So I wrote a little note on a receipt and then gave it to her. And then she started like crying a little bit. She's like, this is the sweetest thing anyone's ever done for me. And I was like, I am now emotional as well. And I'm not like a big emotional person. I don't like like getting too deep in, like start like crying and whatnot.

01:01:41But I was like- Bring it on though. Yeah, I know. So I was like, all right, well, now we're having a moment. So I think that was like one of my like favorite moments in service industry, just in general. But I would say as a bartender, it's always that moment where you wow somebody when they didn't expect to be wowed. That's always like my favorite moment every time. I always always say like, don't tell me you don't like something because I'll make you like it. Yeah. Like that's my favorite thing. When people are like, oh, I don't like Campari. I'm like, well, I'm gonna show you today. You'll find it. Yeah, especially with gin. Gin's my favorite one to do that with. Same. Like people are like, oh, I don't like gin. I'm like, no, you had Seagrams or New Amsterdam where you were in college and you hate it for that reason. Exactly. Yeah. Well, we can change that. I like it because, so man, you just brought up so much stuff that I love. You definitely struck a chord with me because that moment with a guest where it's just like, oh, you've let them feel seen. That's so precious. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. It is. We have a super power. And it's always so weird because you don't feel like you have that power.

01:02:44Like you're in this business where, and just real being real, you deal with a lot of BS. We do. You deal with a lot of customers where you like, and I'm really good at, I am really, really good at being kind of snide sometimes. Without them knowing. Without them knowing I'm being snide sometimes. It's actually a gift. And I didn't realize it was also a privilege. I had a friend walk up to me and she was like, you're really good at that. And noticed that she, because I was like, I feel like she doesn't feel like she could do the same thing. Yeah. And I'm like, I felt kind of really bad about it, but also at the same time, it is my super power where I'm like, I would then use that same thing for other people. Like I would come up behind some of my few other bartenders and I'd be like, hey, you need me to talk to this dude? I would wreck his whole world. I don't mind, you know? But it's also one of those things where you use as a positive, where you're like, you're in the background for the most part, but you also have so much power to affect someone positively and they'll remember you forever. Like I still have people who, you know, social media is a beautiful thing to this extent where people will follow you from years and years and years ago and they remember you.

01:03:49Like to this day, I still have Facebook friends who are from Jay Alexander's, who remember me. And they're like, hey, when are you ever gonna work at a place where I can't come see you? Yeah, can I come see you? Yeah, and I'm like, oh, I'm always at this place. I'm at this place, come see me anytime. I would love to see you. I have that too and it's an honor. Yeah. It really, the people, there's bartenders, I mean, I'm sorry, there's guests that I've had that I'm still, there's actually, you know, now that I'm speaking of it, there's guests and bartenders that I've worked with over the years that you made a difference in their life and they made a difference in yours and you never lose them. Time may separate you, but if there's a moment where you can make a cocktail for someone, it's the same as food. You know, when you invite someone into your home and make a meal for them, cocktails are some of the most intimate ways to let someone feel seen. Exactly. And then also how you created a platform to protect that, the woman you were describing, the lady you're describing, your teammate. You know, I can get away with saying, putting a guest in their place when they're being inappropriate because I have a little girl voice.

01:05:01So I can say something that's actually kind of a little, a little off color, but because I have a little girl voice, it's like, oh, she's just so nice. Yeah, oh, she's so sweet. Yeah, I had a guest that was coming up and they were skipping the hostess stand and they were skipping the process and they were taking a seat from another guest that I knew was coming. And they were like, can we take this chair? And I was like, actually, I've got somebody coming in just a little bit that's coming for that chair. We were on a wait list at the moment. And I was like, but don't worry, we can get you in probably pretty quick if you just wanna stop by the hostess stand. And they were like, well, we just wanna drink. And I was like, oh, absolutely, we can get you a drink. Oh yeah, we can definitely do that for you. It's just right now, I just need you to go through over here and just check in and then I got you. And because I have a little girl voice, there was no insinuation of me being irritated or anything like that. But I didn't discover that power until later on.

01:06:05And so there was a lot of times when I didn't have someone behind me who could be like, hey, sir, I need you not to talk to her like that. So you using your power, I really am grateful for. And I always try to, I always tell people, mine doesn't even come from just being like, alpha male, I'm gonna put you in your place. Mine comes from almost comedy in a sense. Where I always tell people, hey, if you have a group of people and one person is being rude, make everyone else laugh at them. Because then everyone then realizes, yeah, he's right. You're kind of being ridiculous. Good trick, that's a good trick. It always works. I have multiple tricks. I have a batch of right trick. You can probably get into that to another point, but it's like. Oh, tell me. Well, I'll get into it. So at Pinewood, I was at the brink of Pinewood when Nashville was becoming the best direct capital of the world. When we had inflatable penises on top of the Nashville scene. This is the point where we're talking here. And I always had one goal. I was like, look, no matter how big the party is, it does not matter whether it is six people or 11 people or there's 15 people, there's only two people you need to make happy.

01:07:09It's one, the bride, obviously. Obviously. You have to make the bride happy. Totally. Two, the one that won't shut up. Make her happy and everything else just kind of falls in line. She's the spokesperson for the group. Because she really does set the mood for everybody else in the group. And I don't even like saying she, because sometimes I've even had where it's like a male in the group where it's like, hey, this person right here, they are one that's trying to really establish everything. And they just want to have a good time. Just make sure these two people are happy. Everyone else falls in line. Everything else is good. And ironically, it has not failed me yet. Yeah. That works for businessmen. Oh, yes. That works for- A lot of egos there. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned ego again because I did want to mention this. You got into this because of ego, you said. I love this topic because I squash egos. This is my theory with making a good bartender. Yeah, yeah. To me, the number one best trait you can have as a bartender is not your, it's not how you flip a cup.

01:08:15It's not how you stir. It's not your ability to multitask. It's humility. Exactly. I agree 100%. It's humility. And a lot of us get into it because of our ego. And I don't think that that's wrong, but it's wrong if it keeps you stagnant. Exactly. Exactly. I agree because my ego got me into bartending, but it would have got me kicked out of bartending even quicker. I really learned really quickly that it'd be like, all right, humble yourself pretty much first day. I was like, all right, well, it's not as easy as I initially thought. And I really need to take a step back and then readjust what I feel I need to do to be a good bartender. And it wasn't my ego anymore. It was definitely just be hospitable, serve the guests to the best possible way you can. Yeah. I think my ego and pride is what made me want to get better. Actually, I just wanted to prove people wrong. Yeah. And I don't know if you experienced this as a man of color in the bar world, but as a woman in the bar world, I was told that women shouldn't bartend.

01:09:24Oh, yeah, I've seen that one before. I was told because his theory on it was that women and men will have sex, and so therefore women shouldn't be behind the bar because you can't sleep with your coworkers. Such a foolish thing. Yeah, it's like I'm a whole person, my friend. Exactly. I'm not just here for that. Exactly. So, yeah, there was a time when, I'm gonna call him out, the same person I said earlier, Micah Braym, really encouraged me a lot in my career, but also early on was a challenge to work with. And I think since I've worked with him, I feel like he would be okay with me sharing this, I hope. Knock on wood. But yeah, he was sometimes challenging me and pushing me in ways that I think did make me a much better bartender, but also in ways that were not super helpful or encouraging and probably, if I were a different person, may have made me leave the industry.

01:10:31And maybe some people's theory is that like, oh, well then maybe you shouldn't have been in the industry. And I don't believe that. No, I don't believe that either. Yeah. This is a very open, welcoming industry. It should be. It really is about finding your fit. That's the biggest thing. Sometimes you go through a bunch of different challenges and there is some, I wanna say some merit because that gives it almost too much credit, but you do have to be a different type of person who is like, I'm going to do this, to do this industry. But then it's also about finding your fit. Once you find your fit, that's when you really, really find the love for it and you're like, I am here for this now. Totally. There will be people in your way who are obstacles. You deal with a lot of them. It's the gatekeeping part. It is. It really is. And sometimes it's even gate kept by people who don't know what they're talking about. Yeah. And that's the most frustrating part. Oh my gosh. When someone who gate keeps is not even a good bartender, please get out of my face. Oh my gosh. It's so infuriating. Like, dude, back up. Yeah. It's so crazy. There's only one time I felt bad for talking to a manager in a way where I probably shouldn't have, but I looked at this person and I was in the service well and I'm like making drinks.

01:11:39And we kind of know if you're in the service well, like service well is when you're making drinks for everyone. This is what you're doing. In the restaurant. Yeah. So you're not just serving one guest, you're serving 30 to 40 lots of times. Or sometimes up to 300, depending on the seats in the restaurant. Depending on how big your restaurant is, yeah. So you're making tons and tons and tons of drinks. And I remember I'm making drinks and I made this cocktail and I slide it out. I had the ticket. I slid out. I'm one track minded at this point and I am not the best service well bartender. So I'm just making drinks and I'm like crushing it right now. And then the manager comes up and she like grabs a drink. She walks it off. She brings it back. And she was like, hey, this wasn't supposed to be here. And I was like, oh, I'm just making the ticket. Like I'm just making the ticket. Yeah. And then there was a conversation that was going on, but I'm still making drinks at the time. And then finally- You're hustling. Oh yeah, I'm still like doing my thing. Yeah. And then they asked, well, can you make it again? And I was like, cause now the drink is like warm now after we've been talking about it. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm still busy. Can you make it for me? And they said, I can't.

01:12:41And then I remember this vividly. I like put all my stuff down at this point. Cause now I'm just mad. And I just put all my stuff down. I was like, then what are you managing me for? Like I'm so confused now. And then honestly- Spilling the tea. Like shout out to that person. But they like looked at me and they said, they just kind of nodded their head because they're a young manager. And they were just kind of like, yeah. And I was like, okay, well instead just pour these wines. Oh my goodness. You are preaching right now. That gave me goosebumps. I'm gonna tell you. It was a moment I was like, I never felt good about it. But at the time I was like, oh God, they deserve that. It's not even that you're trying. It's not, you're not trying to be condescending. You're not trying to, you know, overstep your bounds or usurp authority. It's like, I am here effectively doing my job, getting drinks out, making people happy. And you're in kind of coming into that flow. Yeah. You're not helping this. You're actively hurting me. Yeah, you're actively hurting me doing my job now at this point. And it affects the guests. Yeah. And I was like, and even then I feel like have a slight conversation with this person every once in a while.

01:13:43I'm just like, hey, what was going on there? Like, you know? Yeah. You could have done like, you could have did that a lot better. Yeah. You know? But it wasn't her fault. Yeah. And that was a very corporate place that she was put in a position to, she didn't know anything quite about bars at the time, but she was put as a bar manager. Because we had to put her somewhere. So I'm trying to remember his name. I think it's Alexander. And I'll, I'm so mad I can't think of it. But I think it's, I don't want to say. He wrote an article about the statehood of cocktails. Yeah. He said that we left the revolution of the craft cocktail, where the revolution was like the speakeasies in New York and you know, the secret bar, the pop-up bar. He said we left that and we're now in a statehood where it's like, you know, every bar claims they have craft cocktail bars. Yes. No matter how commercial they are, no matter how basic it is, every bar has quote unquote craft cocktail bars. I remember that shift. Yeah. And yeah, you can get a fairly decent old fashioned in most bars nowadays.

01:14:46Oh yeah. And so when he talked about the statehood that we reached, he was saying that part of the issue is that because there's such demand for craft cocktails, everybody needs to elevate. And now we have a point where people who are not trained and capable are having to be a bar manager. Yeah, having to learn on the fly too. Yeah, you're having to learn on the fly. And so I completely agree. Maybe she didn't deserve to be clapped back at that hard. I mean, you set her. That was pretty dope. Yeah, I was like, I literally just like, okay. I do not mind it. I do not mind that. I am not mad at that. But I also recognize that the demand on our industry to perform without training, without guidance, is pretty high. And it's kind of sad because the people who make the most money off of it don't have the knowledge to help get people past the point of drowning. Yeah, exactly. We're just kind of floating.

01:15:47And you deal with that a lot in this, especially like the bigger places, where you almost have to educate the people who are supposed to be above you. Yeah, it's like, hey, this isn't how that works. Like this just doesn't work that way. Like as much as you want it to work that way, it just doesn't work that way sometimes. Everyone makes more money when you listen. Exactly. I think that's the hardest thing I have to deal with in past places I've worked is like, trying to explain like, it sounds like it's harder upfront, but it makes you more money on the back end. Exactly. So if you invest in the education if you invest in the bartenders, if you make bartenders lives easier to where they're making more money per hour, they will hustle harder. They'll double the output of cocktails. Exactly. If you train them properly, you don't have to put that extra hourly employee on the shift. No. You can run it with less bartenders because they're more skilled and you can run it faster, more efficiently so that everyone makes more money. The bartenders, the bar, the restaurant, everyone sees income go up when cocktails are going out double time.

01:16:54Yeah. And that was like, that was one of the blessings I had when I was working at Patterson during the pandemic because it was, everyone knew exactly what to do, like at every single time. That's so cool. So when it became time where it's like, hey, we're probably gonna be running three bartenders a shift, two bartenders in a service while a shift, it wasn't as hard as it could have been. Of course, you know, you ended a shift, you're like, hey, we got whipped today. But then at the same time, you were looking at each other and be like, but we still did it. You did it. And then we also made boatloads of money because we were also empowered to do that. Like we were trusted and empowered, which is always like very important things for me. Those two words coming up again. You gotta empower your guests because if you're not empowered to do anything, why would you even do them? If you're gonna just helicopter probably be the whole time, I'm gonna feel like I'm constricted and restricted and I can't really do things how I feel like I need to do them. You can't do your job. Exactly. You're just an extra body just there on top of me. But if I'm empowered to do my job and you trust me to do my job, then I feel better doing my job.

01:17:54The job is hard enough. The job is hard enough. So if you want me to be successful and if you want the bar to be successful, find ways to empower me so that I can make you look good as an establishment. Exactly. I recognize that not everybody has the training or experience to train up bartenders that way. And so I don't necessarily fault the establishments that don't have the knowledge and wherewithal to see these trends and the changes in the industry. Of course, it's tough out there right now. I mean, hey, the industry has been changing in a big way. Very rapidly. Very rapidly. Very rapidly. In the 1980s, we have Dale DeGroff bringing in craft cocktails with the Rainbow Room in New York and definitely making a giant shift in the industry towards craft cocktails. And then you have David Wondrich coming around around 2005 and earlier. Yeah, early 2000s. Yeah, and he starts bringing in the history and the knowledge. So you're compounding concept with now historical reference and then Tales of the Cocktail, while very problematic in its history, it has offered a lot of bartenders technique and skill.

01:19:09And now I think, to be honest and to be fair to Tales of the Cocktail, I think in the last couple years, they are making some objective positive improvements. Yeah, they've definitely been changing it up a little bit. And I appreciate it. I like it when people can hold themselves accountable. It's very important. Yeah, you have to. People, there's a lot of resistance to do that just in general in society. Yeah, that are so resistant. They're so resistant to change. Yeah, the accusation is worse than the crime. Exactly, and it's mind numbing to me sometimes. Yeah, it's just like I need a clock out. I just can't right now, I just can't. I can't take in this. But yeah, so we have the instigation, we have the history, and then we have the technique. And that happens all in the 2000s. So now where are we at post-COVID? We're dealing with a lot of people that, rent is going up. Yeah, yeah. In Nashville alone, it went up about 21%. Everything is going up. Everything is. A hard shell taco now, a taco bill is 2.99. I don't know if anyone knew that. You know what?

01:20:11That's too much for a hard shell taco. Too much. That's too much for a hard shell taco. So I mean, if everything is going up, and we recognize the skill set of the people who are working, it's like we just gotta do something to make sure that we're meeting people where they're at. And education, it hurts on the front end to businesses. It seems like it's time consuming. It seems like we're making people who are gonna take too much power. And it seems like we're creating kind of a monster. But really what we're doing is finding people who will double the effectiveness in the production because of their skill set, who are deserving of what they're getting. And it means that you don't have to have that extra person. And you don't have to split tips five ways. Which in essence, everyone wins. Everyone wins. I can never stress enough to people, like time off is also a reward. Because we're in an industry where sometimes you may work 12, 13, 14 hours in a shift.

01:21:15Unless you're a whole day, aside from being awake. Like you wake up, you get a quick bite to eat, you go to work, you know? That's it. So it's very important that time is also something that's valued almost more than money, especially for someone like me. I'm like, I value my time almost more than I value my money half the time. Where I would like, hey, if I have a Tuesday off, I will take a Tuesday off and I would make something of that Tuesday if I don't have to come in and work a shift where there's too many people on the shift. And it's just like, it's not worth my time anymore. Make it worth people's time to come in and work. And that goes for gigs too. If you're working an outside gig or a pop-up for someone, you guys charge more. I can't even say it any other way. Just charge more. Just charge more. That's something I've dealt with a lot doing privates where you negotiate a price and people will just flat out turn you down. I'm like, hey, honestly, this is the low end of the price. My time is very valuable. I always say whenever I do a private, I say, no matter what, I have to make more than I would have made it work.

01:22:18Yeah, exactly. That's the end all be all. That's the way to do it. So I tell people, I kind of require tips, but people don't tip at private events because they don't carry cash on them. And I might put a Venmo out, but people aren't going to recognize it. People aren't familiar with that process. It's not super comfortable for people yet. So if you're doing a private gig, y'all, I'm saying 200 should be on the low end of what you charge. That should almost be like your starting number. And if you're working a weekend day. Oh, goodness gracious. That's a $400 low end. Yeah, so $400 almost minimum. Yeah, minimum. And I had a really great advice. He's a guy who is, well, I don't want to shout too many people out because I have so many people I could shout out, but his name is Jason Jodway. And he taught me one of my very most important lessons about working for somebody. I was working a private party for him. It's probably my second private party for him, which is important because after we finished, we were like negotiating price. And we kind of touched on a little bit beforehand, but I was kind of like nervous about it still.

01:23:18So the first thing he said to me, it was like, well, how much did that person pay you? So I told him the amount I got paid. And he looks at me and he goes, that is your rate. Don't let anyone tell you your rate, any different than that. That is your rate. That is how much your work is worth at the moment. Yeah. And I kind of like took that like to heart because I'm like, okay, yeah, that's how I should look at it. Like this is my rate. And if you can't pay the rate, that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. Don't harm your profile. Yeah, I'm pretty good about negotiating still with rates. So I'm like, oh yeah, I'll still like work with you because I still want people to have a great time. Totally. But at the same time, this is still my rate and we need to find some way to get to a level that is comfortable for both of us. Yeah. That was very like eye-opening for me because I'm almost too giving sometimes. Yeah. And that was like, that was a good message that I needed to hear at that time. Well, we're in the service industry and we're taught and raised in this culture of give, give, give. And I love that. Yeah. I'm a giving person. Same. I'm supposed to be here. This is who I am. This fits me.

01:24:18Yeah, yeah. But it is hard to learn when it's time to say, I need to be seen. You got to take care of me. It's got to be reciprocal. And when you've got the right guests and you've got people who, they are not only a joy to serve because you are giving something to them that is of value. Yeah. But you're also being recognized for your skillset. Yeah. And it's deserving of the price point that you give them. Now you can definitely negotiate with, I'll cut a deal for some people occasionally. Occasionally. But it's usually because of something I've recognized either, sometimes you just need the money, y'all. And that's okay. If you guys need money, if you need to go do it, do it. Do what you gotta do. If you got to work up to a certain price point, get your recognition out there, get people to know your name, to know the value of your product. That's okay too. There's a building period. There's a building period. But when I do, I do a couple versions of private events that are based off of amateur cocktail classes.

01:25:22And depending on the number of people, sometimes I'll charge up to $600 because I'm doing a cocktail class. And then they still have to pay for the alcohol. So there's also, you guys remember, charge for the product too. Yes, charge for the product. Either work the product into your price of what you charge them. So that's sometimes where I'll land on the $600. Or if you want, you can bring them a bill for the price of the products and then have your separate fee for how much you're charging for your, which should be $200 minimum. Exactly, exactly. And a lot of times people don't realize how much alcohol it actually really costs. It adds up. It adds up so quickly. You will have a small party. It could be 40 people. Yeah. You automatically hit that 200. It's gone. Yeah. Like not even a question. You won't make money. Yeah, you won't make any money. So like if they want to pay for the alcohol. Bring a receipt. Yeah, bring a receipt. Keep a receipt. And like make sure that is known ahead of time. Communicate it. I'm not bad, I'm getting better at it, but I'm like deposits, you know?

01:26:24Because I've had people cancel like last second, like change their mind. Like, hey, sorry, we decided we didn't want to do a bartender. Yeah, getting a deposit smart. Yeah, and it's like, okay, well I took that day off. Yeah. So now I'm making no money. Yeah. And especially if it's like a Friday or a Saturday, like. That's a huge pay cut. That is a huge pay cut. Like out of my week. Yeah. Which, you know, it's an up and down business. Yeah. So you really want to make, you want to be like financially responsible and try to budget things. Yeah. Losing a Friday or a Saturday is, it's a tough one. Yeah. It's a tough one. So make sure you have like, you're covering all of your bases the best you can, but also don't pay for alcohol if you don't have to. Yeah, don't. Yeah, don't. Or work it into the price of your thing. Or work it into the prices. Don't. Don't pay for it. Don't pay for their product. No. No, no, no. If you look at a bar, they're not paying for the, they're paying for the product there too. So you've got to think of yourself like a bar. You've got to think of yourself as a bar. You've got to think of yourself as a bar. As an establishment. Exactly. I like that we're talking about financial stability and we can start to widen our business and we can start to wind down too. But a lot of times as bartenders in this industry, we do not take care of ourselves.

01:27:30Yes. We're not great at it. Yes. And so financial stability, sometimes we live paycheck to paycheck and we get in survivor mode. What a lot of people don't understand is that we do make a lot of money, but it's not guaranteed money. No, no, no, no. And so it's a lot of money when it's a lot of money and it's very little money when it's very little money. And so if you're ever wondering why, if you're a guest and you're not familiar with the inside of the industry, if you're wondering why this conversation is even happening right now, it's because we had to learn the hard way that no one else is gonna take care of us. There will not be stability around the corner. Nope. And the establishment that you work for because of how our industry works, there isn't going to be a guarantee. And so you have to create your own guarantee. Exactly. And unfortunately, the lifestyle of the restaurant industry does not condone or does not help stability. It is not an industry that, like we are definitely dealing with a younger crowd and if you're raised in it, you start to get this idea of like, when I got money, I spend my money and then I don't have money.

01:28:40And so I work another shift and then I give money again. Exactly. And it's a mentality that gets developed because we justify it for one another. We go out and spend money on drinks. You go out and spend money on everything that you, all the things that you want. You over tip your favorite bartender. You over tip your favorite bartender over and over and over again. I can't tell you how many, probably hundreds of thousands of dollars I've spent on just tips alone. I'm so glad they love me. Yeah, yeah. Well, and then, I mean, it is guaranteed amazing service when you go in, it's like, okay, they see you, they know you. Every time. And it's not just because of the tip, it's because they knew you saw them. It's not because of the dollar amount, it's because bartender saw bartender and they felt the love. Exactly. That's the important part. Yeah. So I'm glad that we're talking about financial stability. As we close out here, I've got two questions for you. Yes ma'am. Number one, what is something that every bartender needs to know from your experience?

01:29:40How can we be doing our jobs better? And then number two, this is the big question. I asked this of Robert too, and you can answer it however you need to. Yes ma'am. But what can the industry be doing better for people of color? Okay. Everything every bartender should know, something a bartender should know. I feel like if you're a bartender, save your money. And I was really good about doing that where I would, once everybody started moving the checks, well, strategic move the checks, I immediately said, put this amount into my savings account where I don't see it on my check. I don't need to know it's there. I just need this in my savings account. So save your money. But save it in a way that makes sense to you. You don't have to save it 500, 200, 100 at a time. Save as much as you can that makes sense to you. Because those low seasons come. January comes, February comes, and it's not as busy as it was in the summertime. So you have to make sure you're still safe and comfortable. Plan for it. For more of a technical sense, I would say, be kind.

01:30:44Like that is the biggest thing is to be kind. And I think it's very easy in this industry to get very jaded very quickly. And it happens to everybody. I've seen it happen to every bartender in the city in a sense, and even to some like really, really good bartenders where you just get jaded. And you don't have to be that way. Like it's good to catch yourself and realize that these people actually are just coming out to have a good time. Like I always say, I always say make the damn drink. Like a lot of times, especially in craft, you get really caught up where you're like, I wanna give them the best possible drink that they've never seen before. It's gonna blow their socks off. And maybe they really just want a vodka soda for whatever they really want their vodka soda. So start them off, give them the vodka soda. And then figure out later if you wanna like really blow their socks off. But sometimes people just want one drink. The best drink is the drink in your hand. Exactly, exactly. So be very kind to people, you know? It's a tough, we're all having hard enough time out here as it is. Like that's one of my life mythos where it's like, I don't wanna be a part of someone's bad day. Oh wow. Like I really just want to be as much as I can, good as I can to people.

01:31:48That goes for guests and coworkers. Yeah, and it just goes for just general life in general. That goes in life in general where it's like, hey, you know, I could react how I want to react sometimes, but I could also just be kind. And you never know, that might just change the trajectory of someone's whole like month, week, year even. Life. Yeah, because you never know what part you play in someone's life. Yeah. As far as the industry and how to open up more to people of color. That's a, whew, that is a loaded. It's a big old question. That's a big question. I'm sorry. No, it's all right. But I kind of touched on it a little bit earlier. You did. But it's more of a societal thing. Like we just have to be more accepting of other people in a way that they're being, we don't want people to be uncomfortable, right? And you don't want to make people fit into a shape that they don't fit into. So a lot of times, like especially I see this a lot of black women and it really upsets me every time it happens but they say, but this person said I have an attitude. It's not that they have an attitude. You just value honesty in a different way. Exactly. So if you value honesty in a different way where you're like, I just rather be told the truth than you try to sugarcoat things and let me figure out the truth how you want me to figure it out.

01:32:56Just be honest with me. Yeah. So I think one of the biggest things is more of a societal issue where we have to just be more accepting of how people accept criticisms and also just how we accept each other. Yeah. But I would figure, I would say more than, even almost equal to that is education. Let people know, hey, this is not just a run-of-the-mill job where you can just pick it up and put it down. Not to look down on the fast food industry but it's like, this isn't putting fries in a basket. There's elements to this that take time to absorb and understand. People have built whole careers and identities off of mixing drinks. Yeah. So we should be accepting of that. One of my favorite moments in life ever was my mother saying she was proud of me. And it was the first time she saw me bartending and I wasn't even being impressive. I was literally, I had a bunch of bros in front of me and I was giving them the business. But she was like, it was her first time seeing me bartending actual at Pinewood.

01:33:58And then she sent me a text message and she was like, it was so comforting to see you in your space, be happy and doing your thing. I'm so proud of you. And I broke down and cried that day. And once again, not a big cryer but it's one of those things where it's like, you have to educate people to let them know like, hey, this is a valid career. And it opens so many doors for you if you just accept that it will and let it, you know? That's so beautiful. Thank you. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I also, I come from a family where drinking is, has been abused in different parts of our family. And so for good reason, there's a skeptical of me being in this particular industry. Yes. So to be at the point where I'm now in and for it to remove the doubt, to remove the fears and to let them see this is a real job. Yeah, it's a real job. And I'm sure that text from your mom probably meant the world. Oh yeah, it was, it was a game changer for me because it was one of my biggest fears was, I came from, I was supposed to be a lawyer, you know?

01:35:01That was, I was supposed to be a doctor. That was supposed to be a lawyer. So when it came time where I was like, I'm not doing either one of those things, it was a shock for her just as much as a shock for me. So when it became a time where it was, hey, this is what I'm going to do, I really had the seller on it. And it took a long time before I was finally like, hey, this is what I do. And I'm really good at it. This is what I mean by when I, cause I said this with Robert too is like, and I'll probably say it again in this six part series is that none of us, this wasn't our first choice for a job. Oh no, no, no, no, no. Usually not our second or third choice for a job. Yeah, and it's tons of things. My favorite thing is like playing like, hey, what were you before this? Like, what was your goal before this? You'll see everything, especially in Nashville. You'll see tons of singers and musicians. Yeah. You'll see tons of those. So many. And then you'll see someone who's like, oh yeah, I was like, I'm a former teacher. And you'll see- Right here, it was me. Yeah, and it's always a different goal that someone had and they ended up in bartending and it really did change their whole trajectory. And I think too, what you're touching on is like, when my career changed, it's not just like, oh, I failed because I didn't get to do what I wanted.

01:36:05It's like, oh, I didn't hit the mark of expectation that people had put on my life. Exactly. And now that's a whole big conversation and somehow I've got to make slinging drinks and serving people who are yelling in my face or like, hey, sugar tits, can I get a Tito's and vodka? And you're like, Tito's is vodka. Why do you always say this to me? But yeah, I mean, I've had guests come up and say like, I have a tattoo on my chest with grapes from an ancient vineyard on there. And I've had so many dudes, just bros, be like, can I taste a grape? Oh, we're the worst. It's like, but I'm really appreciative of your time. I'm grateful that we could get some of these ideas out. I mean, it's just, we're in a really cool industry. We really are. I use the word dope a lot, but it really is. We're in such a dope industry, like where you can do any creative thing you want to do and then you make pretty dope money from doing it.

01:37:06But also you have so much, you meet so many people. I didn't want to bring it really, but I met Del DeGroff by accident, had no idea what he actually looked like. But I ended up meeting him from a guest who I had the day before who was really impressed with me. So when he saw me again, he was like, hey, Preston, he's like, I want you to meet somebody. And then my bar manager pulled me aside, and I was like, Del DeGroff. And I was like, holy crap. Oh, that's cool. I would have been, yeah, cause I did the bar smarts advanced and I was grateful. I got to meet Del DeGroff and Dana Wondrich and Paul Picoult and a lot of my heroes and Steve Olsen. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's an incredible Doug Frost. It's an incredible opportunity and they're like your heroes. They created our jobs. Yes. They created our jobs. Our job is here because of them. Exactly. So yeah, I mean, it's definitely a humbling moment, but yeah, I really think that's, I'm glad that you ended up telling me that cause. It was a moment for me. You got like 5% cooler, just so you know.

01:38:08You know what, I'll take it, I'll take 5%. You were already at like 120, so like you're at 125 now. I'll take 125, that's pretty good. Okay, my dear. Well, I love you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much. You want to clink glasses with me? Oh, of course. Here's my friend. Cheers to you. All right, folks. Well, thank you for listening and if you've got a good shift tonight coming up, I hope you have a great time and make lots of money and cheers. Thank you guys again for listening. It has been an amazing time getting to listen to Preston and talk with all of these amazing bartenders. I hope that you're enjoying what you're hearing and I hope that some of these lessons you can take to heart. Make sure that you keep clinking glasses and make sure that you keep your head up. Keep drinking bubbles as Robert would say and save your money as Preston would tell you to do and make sure you just take care of yourself and take care of the teammates around you. Make lots of money. Cheers, guys.