The Gospel of Cocktail Podcast with Kala Ellis

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01:06Do a 30-minute demo and I will give you a free hat or I will give you a free t-shirt for Nashville Restaurant Radio. Just DM us on Instagram and let us know you set that up. Go check them out right now. You know, what chefs want, some people still call it creation gardens, but what chefs want has been, was our first advertiser on the show. Monty Crawford saw what we were doing and he goes, I want to be part of it, dude. I love it. And I just, I love that. They're so perfect because they work with locally-owned and operated restaurants better than anyone. And let me tell you how they do it. No minimums, no fees, no fuel surcharges, no surcharges any time. They deliver seven days a week. They have 24-7 customer support. You can call, text, chat, email anytime from anywhere, or you can reach them at 502-587-9012. They have a diverse line of products. Their chefs have access to thousands of items across many different categories that allow them to receive fresh product daily.

02:09What Chefs Want is the perfect addition to any broad line company as they've got all of your fresh produce delivered daily, plus custom meats, anything that you need that your broadliner can't get. Give them a call, 800-600-8510, or visit them at whatchefswant.com. Welcome to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast. Now, here's your host, Kayla Ellis. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast. With your host myself, I am Kayla Ellis. If you wanna find me, you can spot me at Oak Steakhouse, or you can also find me at Okoo in Germantown. I am the beverage director for Indigo Road. So sometimes I bounce around a little bit. Sometimes I can be hard to trace down, but those are my two spots here in Nashville.

03:10And I am so grateful to get to do this podcast pop-up with Brandon Styll through Nashville Restaurant Radio. We're getting into some cool stuff today. I'm gonna be talking with Twin Nguyen. Now, she is absolutely amazing. She's one of my favorite people in the whole wide world, absolutely an incredible bartender, and she is the head bartender of Okoo. So I've worked with her pretty closely for the last three years, and she's so endearing, and she's absolutely incredible at her job. And I'm really excited to get to share her story with you and give you some insight from her perspective of things we can be doing better in the industry and ways that we can keep ourselves uplifted. But I wanna tell you too, we are being sponsored right now by another really cool group called Brandiamo. So I'm really excited to have this Brandiamo group come and sponsor us. They have absolutely been such a cool project for a bartender, or if you are a brandy drinker, they've absolutely been one of the coolest projects that you could be a part of.

04:19I believe they've got six episodes out, but they've got a 35-part series coming up. Brandiamo is B-R-I-N-D-I-A-M-O. And you can find them on YouTube or LinkedIn. Every week, they release a new video. And it goes basically in depth about the people who make the bourbon business happen. You can follow them, find out more about it. I really think that they do a good job of giving you that inside picture of where your bourbon comes from. And if you are a bourbon drinker, or even if you're not, you are probably seeing some outcome of what they do in your everyday life, because it's a huge business. Bourbon keeps the bills paid for me as a bartender. And here in the States, it is the number one spirit of choice for a lot of different drinkers, especially if you're into whiskey, especially if you're into aged spirits. So check them out, Brandiamo.

05:22Thank you so much for supporting us and for supporting bartenders. We really appreciate it. So I really am excited. Let's get into this talk with Twinn. Thank you so much for sharing with us your story. And if you're a bartender, I hope you're listening. I hope you feel seen. All right, Twinn, let's get into it. ["Retro Rhapsody in D minor"] Bourbon, you know that it's recording, and you don't have to do like a hard transition. So, okay, you ready, maybe? Hello. Ready. Okay, you guys. So I am talking to truly one of the most amazing people in the world. This is Twinn Nguyen. She is the head bartender of Oku in Germantown. I'm a huge fan. I'm like cheesing so hard because I've been waiting for this opportunity to see Twinn in the spotlight.

06:27You know I love you, girl. So I want you to say hi to everybody and let's clink glasses real quick and I'll tell everybody about this cocktail. Okay, perfect. Hello, everybody. I'm really excited to be here with Kayla. Oh. This is the scary thing, is liquids around everyone's equipment. Cheers to you, mama. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you. You are someone who I am very close to, I would say. One of the most amazing bartenders in Nashville. If you have not seen Twinn bartend, you guys have to get to Oku. She is incredible. It is so much fun to watch you. Like Twinn, you are just so much fun to watch. I've worked with a lot of bartenders. Your intuition and your ability to multitask is just incredible. Tell me, if you will, why did you get into bartending, Twinn? I think I've always been into restaurant industry and I've always really enjoyed it and I've enjoyed talking to people, especially.

07:37I feel that bartending is a little more challenging, so it is fun to learn something new like that. And honestly, when I applied at Oku, my idea was just to learn whatever I can. And I told them, I said, I was like, I'll be a server, whatever, really. But obviously, I wanted to be a bartender. So they gave me the role of bartending. And at first, we were opening the restaurant and it was just so hectic and crazy. But then once you came along and it's just, everything slowly adds in time, got more organized. I've learned so much. I enjoy it so much. It's just fun to be crazy and doing a lot of things at once. Why do you think it's fun? What makes it fun? I just love to move around. I'm a very moving around person, a very hands-on person. It's just fun to challenge yourself almost, to see what you're capable of doing.

08:38I love that. So I think that's, I always just like, all right, let's just push it to the limit pretty much. What's next? What do I do? Exactly. I mean, you're definitely one of the most dope bartenders I've ever seen do it. Because you're so good at multitasking. You're so good at getting drinks out, making people feel seen, making people feel happy. But also you're really good at the bar vibe itself, making sure that you, that if anything is needed at any given time, even if it's on the opposite side of the bar from where you're standing, you're on top of it. I mean, girl. Thanks. I think over the last three years that I've been working with you, I've been so enamored with your progress and with your growth. You've always been dope. You've always been an amazing bartender. What I've loved to see is the way you're shining now. Putting myself out there now, guys. Yeah, you're putting yourself out there.

09:39I know. It's definitely something I have, you know, built myself up a lot to do. Yeah? The last couple of years, especially. What made you want to do that? What have you been doing to build yourself up? I think one of them, honestly, you encouraged me a lot, for sure. And I think as you grow, I guess, with age too, I think I just learned to kind of stand up for myself type of thing. And you know, I love, I enjoy my job. I think I'm fairly good at it. So I think- We know you are. I think, you know, and I just never gave myself that credit, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I think, I'm like, whatever. Just, I suck, I suck, I guess. And you're amazing. You definitely don't suck. I know that with a lot of us in the industry, this is something I've talked about now so far with Robert. I just interviewed Preston Denny as well. When we get into this industry, it wasn't necessarily our first choice.

10:40And so sometimes we feel like a failure right off the bats. And the whole, like, if I suck, I suck. You know, Preston got into it because of his ego, he said. It was like, you know, my ego started me and then I humbled myself. And maybe that's true for a lot of guys. I don't know if it's always true for a lot of women. I mean, for a little bit for me, it was like, I wanna prove you wrong. I don't know how much of that is my ego and how much of that is just like, please see me. Please know that I'm capable. You've always been a badass bartender. I would say, in the time that I've met you, all I've given you is just, hopefully, a platform to stand on and more tools to do your job. But it's all you. You're really amazing at your job. Thank you. Do you feel that some days? Yeah, I feel, like I said, I feel like, you know, I'm pretty good at my job, I think.

11:43Because one reason why I'm good at it is because I enjoy it. I don't feel pressure when I go into work. Like, I actually enjoy being there. I enjoy my coworkers, the guests even. But yeah, I think, I feel like there are, it used to maybe, majority of men used to be more bartending. I could be wrong. No, you're right. So I think, back to the, you know, we didn't choose this path type of thing. I don't feel like we, yeah, I feel like we didn't choose it, but I feel like now I wouldn't choose another path over this. Like, this is what I love, you know? And I've always enjoyed service industry, like hospitality anyways. But like I said, I feel like this is where I'm at, like where I belong, you know, where I'm good at, so. Man, everybody has said that so far about the hospitality part. Not everybody has said it the same as you have, but hospitality is kind of a driving force.

12:51What does that mean? What does hospitality mean? I think it's just, I think there's a connection when you go, you work in the hospitality. I think you're more connected to the people around you. It's not just, sorry, it's not just like a service. You know, you actually connect with people, you get to know people, you build a relationship with people. You take care of them, they take care of you, you know? I mean, you know, we have so many regulars that are so dedicated to us. They come every week to see us. And that's because that connection, you know, they actually genuinely care and love us, so. That's so special. It really is cool. It's cool to see, it's cool to like, you know, see people care about you too, you know? And also those people don't think bartending is just a job, you know? They respect you, they, you know. They see us. To be seen is really big because, I mean, you and I have talked about this before.

13:57I know that even just recently, you had somebody telling you, when are you gonna get a real job? Oh, bartending's not even a real job. I know that means that's a trigger for you. For sure, I think it happens quite a bit in our industry. You know, and it's unfortunate that people think of it that way just because we don't carry a more superior title. They maybe don't appreciate or maybe just kind of look down on our job. But you know, I think bartending, hospitality, whatever, is just as important as any other category of jobs. Maybe that's those people, ignorance is what I call it. It's ignorance, you're totally right. I mean, the thing is, is that, and you know I preach this a lot, but, and I talked about this with Robert Chambers, the industry is ancient.

14:59Service is an ancient industry. It has ancient roots. And Paul Picoult, the guy who wrote the book on his, F. Paul Picoult, he wrote the book on Scotch. And he talks about when he was, he made a visit to China and was invited into kind of like the palace, I guess. I don't really know what it's called. Yeah, what would it be, like headquarters? Yeah, yeah, whatever. Something important. It was very important, and he was there. And they showed him this ancient map of China, this like built-up map. It was like downtown in the hub of where everything is going on. And they could point out where the police station was, where the hospital was, and where the bars were. And so I'm not gonna harp on it for long because I talked about it with Robert, but he says that he was told, you have someone who is a giver of law and order, someone who is a giver of health and wellbeing, and we are givers of joy.

16:18I know that that can be cheesy. I know it can sound cheesy. But as long as I've known you, you've given me nothing but joy. Oh my God. But- This is really about me and Kayla. This is the twin and Kayla hour. I think that's fair. Some of the episodes I've done so far is about, with Robert, we talked about wine, and we talked about places where the industry could improve, and we'll talk about that too. With Preston, same thing, except we focus more on cocktails and how bartenders can make money. With me and you, we can talk about that too. But my relationship with you is special. It is. And I think as two women too that are hard into this industry, we experience a lot of similar things also. Negatives, positive, all of the above. So I think there's definitely a lot of things that we feel that you might not feel with- With every guy. Exactly. Totally. I mean, we've both definitely dealt with discrimination for being a woman.

17:21I'm sure as a woman of color, you've also dealt with a variety of different discrimination. Sometimes people are outright with it, and sometimes they're a little bit more secretive. Yeah. Subtle. Sometimes they don't even know that they're being racist. Definitely. I can tell one little thing, and it's just, it might be a little too harsh. No, go for it. This is a, we are hard-hitting, this is hard-hitting journalism right now, Twin. Here we are, here we go. No, I'm just kidding. But I remember when I moved to Augusta, Georgia for a couple months, and I got a job at this sports bar, pretty much. And it's a very unique town. I obviously never been there before, or even know what it's like there. Yeah. I remember, I think maybe like the first week or so that I was bartending, I had several people say, you know, off the wall things to me, but I just remember one comment. He said, where did you come, where, what are you?

18:23He said, what are you? Just because of my race, I guess, you know? And I was like, what am I? What is that even me? Yeah, I'm a human, I'm your bartender. Right? And then she's like, where you come from type of thing. And, you know, I can't really get mad at them, you know, and I'm not gonna upset myself either, but it's just disappointing and kind of a letdown to hear things like that are still being said. Yeah. I mean, it's ridiculous that we're still having these same conversations. When people have said that, and when they're targeting you for that, I mean, you've already said that you're not gonna let it get you down. Like you kind of dig in and focus and you, I mean, that's impressive. It's a shame that you have to do that. But do you have a tip or something for women out there who may be in a similar position as you to survive? I think for women in general, and especially women of color, any race, it don't matter what race you are, just in general, you know?

19:34I think it's time for you to really stand up for yourself and prove to, you know, this time and being that it has to be different, you know? It can't be the same anymore. So, you know, if we keep backing down, we're not gonna move forward, you know? And I'm not trying to be like a hard ass or anything like that. It's just, you know, we do have to learn to stand up for ourselves. Preach. And so, you know, and I think within time, it will get better. It has gotten a lot better. I feel like women bartending is more respected. I know, I mean, personally, I doubt my parents are super excited that I'm a bartender and not a doctor or a lawyer, you know? That's a typical Asian family. So that's definitely one thing that it's hard to, but, you know, now that time's gone by, you know, I'm supporting my father and, you know, things that he realized, you know, that it is a good job, you know?

20:46It pays you well. I enjoy what I do, so. You're good at what you do. Well, he doesn't know that. I'll tell him. Okay. I mean, you are really good at what you do. Thank you. Oh, Lord, that is so, it's so hard to unpack, because when you say these things and you share this experience with me, I mean, I'm somebody, I wanna change the whole world. I wanna rip the whole world up and start over and make it so that, you know, people feel heard, feel safe. And I try to do it within our bars, because I don't have sphere of influence around the whole world. I'm just a bartender, and you're my family. And so getting to work with you and see how amazing you are behind the bar and showing the world how amazing you are is one of the few things I can do to hopefully make a difference. And I don't know if I really make that much of a difference overall.

21:50I try to. I think it's more about the goal than actually focusing so much about the outcome, because the outcome is gonna be what it's gonna be. But if my intentions in my heart and my driving force are to look after others and uplift others, then there's gotta be some good that comes of it. And then hopefully I can also track myself and find places where if my outcomes aren't lining up to that goal, then maybe I need to check myself. Maybe I'm not so good at my goal. Maybe I need to reassess. I had to earn your trust. Yes, you did. Do you feel comfortable sharing that? Please. That's so funny. Yeah, we didn't always, was this close? Yeah. Or started off so well like this. I think, you know, I guess again, back to like my culture, am I okay to slouch like this? Yeah, you're good girl. Be cozy.

22:52I think it's hard for us to trust people easily or to open up to people. We're very closed off and kind of like, not all men to themselves, but you know, that's what we feel like what society is. I feel bad for saying this because I don't know if every other people in my culture feel the same. I'm just speaking for me at least. That's all you can do. So, you know, I think it was hard at first because I was at Oku before you came, you know? So that's one thing that I was like, you know, and then I just didn't really trust you because I didn't understand what your goals was, you know? I didn't understand what you wanted or if you just wanted to move yourself in there to get yourself to a higher, you know, spot or whatever it is that you want to accomplish. Or are you trying to help us as, you know, a bar, a team for us to make more money, to find a more stable system for us to run with. But yeah, I mean, us and Tom, obviously you've taught us so much stuff.

23:57Like I've learned so much from you. It's crazy. And, you know, I think we all appreciate you. You definitely are our backbone pretty much, you know? Oh my goodness. No, I'm serious. And I don't say that often enough to you because, you know, me. I don't want you to. You're gonna make me blush and stuff. No, we appreciate you though. So now, you know, I feel like I'll tell you, I'll text you, call you. We talk about every day. We do. Multiple times a day. Yeah. I'm grateful that you let me earn your trust. And as a person who came in as, I was hired in as a manager, right? So I was hired in to do a job. But it's very important to me that I earn people's respect. I don't demand it. Because our industry is full of garbage. I mean, I have PTSD from people that I've worked with.

24:58That have like not respected me or made me feel less than, or like you said, had an agenda for themselves and not for the team. And so I know that I had to prove something and that I had something to prove. Not only do I have to prove something, but I have something to prove. I have something to give you guys. And it took a long time, but it was worth it. It was so worth it because I don't care about anything other than bartenders. Like literally, this is all I do. We know. Every time we hang out, we went to me and Ben, who's also another bartender at Oku. We were at one of the competition I went to and it was so funny. We were doing a, what you call it? Trivia. Oh yeah? Or we thought they were gonna do like a trivia over alcohol, like spirits. Ben goes, oh, he goes, oh, Kayla's about to bust through the wall.

26:04Like the Kool-Aid dance? I mean like literally, like trivia, alcohol, spirits? Kayla. Oh yeah. I was like, that was so funny. That's so funny. I have a problem. I literally can't stop. So I'm gonna be like way down the bar and they'll be like, so what is this taste? And you're like, what? Did you say something about me? Do I need to get involved? Okay, here. Did you say something about whiskey? I hate it. I can't help it. I'm really happy though because I mean, so stop laughing at me. This is so funny. Oh my gosh. It's okay, you can totally laugh at me. I am happy about it because, so one of my favorite teachers growing up, he said that a good teacher is just someone who loves what they love in front of their students. And I was a teacher first. I've always been in the industry for as long as I can remember. I mean, I think I'm going on 18 years here and it could be less than that actually.

27:08I think I did the math wrong the other day. But I know that teaching is at my heart. Since I was a little kid, I wanted to be a teacher. I used to take our laundry basket and flip it upside down and I would tape my brother's name on it, like a desk. And I would, it said Spencer, you can laugh at me. You were holding back your laugh, but I see it. I would tape Spencer's name on it, Spencer Ellis. And I would force him to sit through class during summer. I would use our old textbooks and stuff. And I just always wanted to be a teacher because there was something really fun about the knowledge aspect and something really cool about sharing it. It was just something that there was a sense of higher education, excitement. Always there's new material. I was very much into the Magic School Bus and Mrs. Frizzle, she was so cool to me.

28:09And so I'm just a big nerd, I'm just a big nerd. And so I kept down that path. And at the same time, I was always in the industry. So I started finding that there was places in the industry where we weren't seeing the education that bartenders and servers and anybody working in back of house, chefs, line cooks, there's education that exists that people don't have access to and think that is not for them. And so somewhere along the lines, when I realized that teaching wasn't gonna be it for me, I was like, oh, I'm still a teacher. It's just gonna be in this format. And I'm just gonna love what I love and nerd out in front of people that I love. And so you take what you take. If it doesn't all stick, that's okay. I've never been upset, you know I go on a diatribe of all of a sudden someone lists a factoid and it lists all these other factoids. I can just see the things listing off. Kayla, come back. And then all the stories just start to unfold.

29:13Literally, you're like, yeah, I know. We know, we know. But then when you access the story, now that story belongs to you. And nothing makes me more excited than when I hear you tell a story, whether it's a story that I've told or like your own version of that story. I mean, honestly, I'm more excited when it's your own version of the story because I'm like, yes, she's so sick, look at her. And guests love it, people love it. They do. It's like you said, when you're dealing with those guests that we have to stand up to, we have to stand up, not just to guests, but to our industry, to the people who see us, the people who give us jobs, the people who are out in there in this world, the collective world of the people who say, bartending's not a real job. That's the people who ultimately we're standing up to. And people, not only are you standing up as a bartender saying bartending is a real job, but I am a woman and you are a woman of color.

30:15And so those three things are places where it's like somebody's gonna catch you and be like, you're less than. And it's a lie, it's a lie. And so education is a tool to enlighten them and be able to see your power and see like, wow, look at her shine. And you don't have to do anything. You're dope even if you never knew a single story from history. You guys, anybody listening, if you feel like you have to know this stuff to bartend, that's just not true. If you're slinging drinks and you're making money slinging drinks, you're a killer bartender and you need to know that. I'm down for bartenders of all types. And there's a way to bartend honorably no matter what environment you're in. But if you want another tool in your belt to help you do that effectively, I just wanna empower you. And so education is a tool to do it. I think you definitely have taught us so much. And I think several times, when you were teaching us, I didn't get it.

31:18I'm like, what are you talking about? And then later on, I'll go home and research a little bit and just like small little points start connecting with each other. And that's how I kinda started educating myself a little better too. I'm like, okay, I thought she was lying. She made this up, but no, it's true. I was like, I just didn't get it. You just gotta plant the seeds. Right, right, right. Yeah, and see what happens. And then those two, three words that I took from what you said match up with these three words that I just found. It just makes more sense. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, you don't have to obviously learn the whole story every year of the history or whatever. It's just whatever it is that makes you comprehend a little bit better about the spirit or the taste or what it mix well with who the sister, brother of that spirit could be. Yeah, what are the associative things? Exactly. So if a guest want one thing and you wanna guide them towards this other experience, you have now the strength and the understanding to be like, oh, if you love that, let me tell you about this.

32:23Exactly. So I mean, it increases your pocketbook. Definitely, and it's more fun too because the more you learn about different spirits, you can add just a dash of something and it just changed the whole drink. So it's definitely fun to play around and learn little profiles of different spirit and things that the spirit is made out of makes a big difference also. Yeah, understanding why the spirit tastes the way it does will help you know what flavors to expect from it and what kind of flavors you can pull out of it in a cocktail. You've made some of my favorite cocktails over the years. I'm trying to think the name of the one. Don't say for old time sake, please. Girl, no, I love that one. No, it's for old time sake, not sake, okay? Oh, okay, okay. I thought you were saying that you didn't want me to call out that cocktail. No, it's a good one. She had a drink called for old time sake and because we work at a sushi and Japanese fusion restaurant, people would read it as for old time sake.

33:27And hey, maybe it was an opportunity missed. Maybe we should have made a sake cocktail called for old time sake. It worked, it's what happened. It's just funny. We'll do it again later. We'll make a cocktail again. Well, it was right after the whole COVID. So that's where I got the name for old time sake because let's go back to being normal, I guess. That cocktail was so beautiful. I mean, yeah, you were nostalgic. You were trying to, you know, when COVID hit, it was about two weeks after or a week after, I guess, a huge tornado that hit us in Nashville. And if you're a Nashville resident, I hope you guys are recovering okay if you happen to be a part of that or were affected by that. If you're in the bar community, I know a lot of us in the bar community were pretty heavily stricken by the loss of life in some of our community. And also just losing spaces and buildings and having to see places get reconstructed.

34:31And then a couple of weeks later, we all lost our jobs. So when we came back, that for old time sake was such a fire cocktail. And it was fairly simple too. Like we talked, I talked with Preston a lot about like the complexities of cocktails and how like we make a drink and getting into, kind of getting tired of it. Like, man, I mean, we're just, every cocktail has already been made. Like, how do I get creative again? And hitting that wall. But sometimes the best cocktails are just beautiful, clean flavors executed well. And that cocktail was phenomenal. It was Uncle Nearest, right? Yep. Uncle Nearest Whiskey was the base. Was it the 1856 at the time or were we doing 1884? I think we were doing the 84. And then we had the Rosemary Syrup. It was a Rosemary Syrup and a White Pepper Tincture. And I can't remember. I believe you had a Lemongrass Shochu in there.

35:31Yeah. And the Lemongrass Shochu. Shochu, you guys, is a type of Japanese spirit that is often grain-based or rice-based and then made in a similar fashion to like the beginning of a sake but then is proofed and brought up. So usually they're doing it either by adding a grain spirit to it. With this one in particular, this was Mizu, I believe, the Mizu brand, Lemongrass Shochu. And this cocktail was so good. I can't remember if there was, was there anything else in it? I think that was just it. I would say it was an old-fashioned style, but it was pretty refreshing for an old-fashioned. Super refreshing for an old-fashioned. Pretty light, pretty easy. And the white pepper tincture, I think, is one of the coolest things. I don't bring it back often enough. I just think it was such a cool flavor. We were playing with a white pepper tincture where we make a white pepper tincture in-house. If you guys at home wanna play with tinctures, all you gotta do is take a high-grain, a high-proof grain spirit, so like a high-proof vodka, add some kind of spice or flavor that you want to infuse it with, and for a minimum of 24 hours.

36:45Sometimes flavors will infuse faster than that, but if you want a really nice, balanced one, leave it a little bit longer. White pepper, though, is hot. It comes through, it's zesty. It almost has like a citrus note to it. And when we filtered it, we'd have to double-strain it. We'd have to send it through a coffee filter to get some of that cloudiness out. And just a couple dashes of that, it would have this heat. And the white pepper with the rosemary was just so tasty in this stirred cocktail. A lot of people will do rosemary in kind of like shaken, refreshing cocktails. Nothing wrong with that. But you tasted that, and for some reason, your mind went to this stirred cocktail. I don't know. I mean, it worked out well, I think. With the unkenarius, too, it's got a little spice to it, also, and the white pepper tincture went really well with that. The rosemary was just refreshing, and just the extra garnish on top, when you take that first sip, it's refreshing. And then you go deeper into the cocktail. So yeah, I enjoyed it. Did that syrup you made with the rosemary, did it also have lemongrass in it, I think?

37:46Yeah, it did. Yeah, yeah. And at the time, we were trying to use our lemongrass from what we were growing outside. At the time, our general manager, Gabby Raven, who we loved dearly, she's now our area manager, but she was so sweet, she planted a bunch of lemongrass outside for us to play with and use, and we tried, we tried. We still love you, Gabby. They were just a little skinny. A little skinny. We didn't give it all the nutrients. She grew rosemary, too. Yeah, she did grow it. She did. The rosemary, too. We did use that. We did use more of the rosemary, I think, but yeah, it just, this is the thing that, we're using a garden outside that we're dependent upon servers and other folks to water and take care of, because we, that was part of the ambiance. It also chased away fruit flies and flies for the patio outside, so it had a dual usage.

38:48But yeah, that was so good. I love that drink that you came up with. You've had other amazing cocktails. I think that that cocktail was almost like a, it seemed to me like a light bulb went off after you made that cocktail. Do you feel like that? Definitely. Yeah? I think that was like my first cocktail where I thought more in depth with ingredients and mixture and just little tinctures to make just that extra effect that I wanted. So definitely that first one gave, opened me up to a lot more of what I can play with, I guess. What are you working on for this menu, this coming up menu? This one, I'm taking it a little bit easier, but it's still gonna be really refreshing and delicious, but I'm mixing, my vision is kind of like a in between a craft Mai Tai mixed with an horchata. Okay, I love horchata. Yeah, it'll be fun, it'll be good.

39:51So we'll see, it'll be a rum base, and then we'll have a little bit of coconut milk in it. And you're using that rice syrup? We're doing our house rice syrup. It's got a nice texture to it, not overly sweet, but kind of fun. So it's good for the heat? My mind is just like in paradise, like I just need to be at the beach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's good for like the changing of seasons too, because I mean, fall's not gonna be far away. And so yeah, I think that that's, it's refreshing, but at the same time, because of like that, like horchata has like a little bit of a cinnamon note to it, and our rice syrup in house, we make with a toasted cinnamon. And so there's something very kind of like both refreshing and tropical, but also like... Wintery. Yeah, like cozy, comforting. Exactly. I love it. And I think like when people think about like fall and winter, they always go for such a deep cocktail, more like an intense overt, like old fashioned Manhattan, Negroni style, and it's just like, they're great, but not everybody drinks those kind of cocktails, you know?

41:05So I wanna just offer something for people who likes refreshing. A refreshing cocktail. Year round. Yeah, I love that. I am, so I talk with Preston a little bit about the type of menus that we produce at Okoo, and also at Oak Steakhouse. But how do you feel about our process? Have you, like I was telling Preston, and Preston's a little bit more familiar with an example of a other bar, another bar that is craft cocktail that will put out a menu that's made by the team. An example of how it often goes down is that everybody brings their cocktails to the table without necessarily having found out who's making what style of cocktail, and it's just like almost competitive, like if two people bring the same type of cocktail up to the table, someone may not get their drink on the menu. I don't do it that way, and it's not just because I want everyone to get a drink on the menu, even though that is 100% part of it, because I have a rule at the places that I put together menus for, is that if you come up with a drink, your name is on that menu next to your drink.

42:21It's just a rule. So I do want everybody to be on that menu. But I also do it because I'm not just trying to create this individual cocktail that's the best cocktail you've ever had. I'm trying to create a balanced menu that's the best menu you've ever seen so that every guest feels seen when we create that menu. A lot of bars don't do it that way. How has this experience been for you doing it this way? How much do you hate or love my pushiness with this? I think it's brilliant. I mean, like I say, like- I'm not fishing for compliments. No, I mean, I think it's fair to give, you know, a menu that is for everybody. Totally. You know, like I was just saying, you don't want wintertime just have all old fashioned and, you know, Manhattan's. It's like, I would've, I want something refreshing, you know? So I think our menu, and again, we go through, you know, more simple down to more a spirit forward style.

43:24So that gives, you know, the bartender to play with what they decide to play with also, you know? So it's not like you, we have to challenge each other, but instead we're working with each other also. And it's so fun when we do one of those workshops because we end up like focusing on somebody else's cocktail for like a whole hour and totally forget about ours. And then they come over and help us, you know, with our cocktails. So it's so fun to just see what everybody, honestly, it's a group menu. It is. Even if it's an individual cocktail, it's still a group, you know, participant because we all help each other and give each other that, you know, positive, negative. Yeah. Yeah. I have never felt more proud than when I'm like sitting in one of those sessions with everybody. I geek out in those sessions. We wild out. It's, I like. There's stuff everywhere. Oh my gosh. It's a little bit hectic. And I'm usually sitting there because I'm like the taster, especially as everyone's developing their palates and developing their senses, I'm usually set up kind of central in the space and I'm just tasting everything that people are putting at me.

44:37And it's hilarious because it's like, you know, Ben will have this cocktail waiting for me and everybody's just waiting in line. And like, it's only a second of it. And then sometimes people will talk over the top of each other. And the teacher side of me, the person that the teacher side that like wanted to get into bartending, that part of my brain is so satisfied during these workshops because it's like, I've got like three to five people talking to me almost at once. Everybody's trying to take turns, but nobody's super patient. Cause you're like, try it, try it, try it. You're just so excited. You're like, what do you think about this? Or like, do you think it needs more fat? Do you think it needs more weight? Do you think it needs more like to be brighter? What do you think? And seeing you guys get excited about cocktails, I'm just like in heaven. And it's fun to just be like, there are new bartenders in our group now and it's just show them like what we mean, but we need more fat, you know? Or if it's too fat and you need a thin, and I will, you know, too bitter or whatever. And they didn't get that until you taste it. Then you redo it.

45:37They're like, okay, that makes sense. So just something that simple, you know, has taught them so much in the future cocktails too, or just freestyling a cocktail in the future. They can strata something like, yeah, this is too heavy. What do I need to do to bring it down a little bit, you know? And every time you do a workshop like that, somebody gains more insight. And so the next cocktail may not need all that extra advice and guidance. We still give it to each other. And it's so much fun to just be like, you're there. That's the cocktail. That's the cocktail we need for the menu. It's fun. Oh, it's so fun. You got a little, can I say you got a little emotional with Tiffany? Oh, yeah. I was so proud of her. Tiffany's one of our bartenders, and she just started. She's a server over at Okoo, and she's killing it. But she happened to go through her process, and she was very anxious about her process. And when she landed on that cocktail, something happened in your little heart. Well, she was actually the first one that finished her cocktail.

46:40And she's just, you know, she's so great, and she wants to learn so much, you know? She was nervous, because she actually got the more challenging cocktail in her mind, you know? Yeah. And just to clarify for the audience, we do the cocktail menu in order of most refreshing up top, and very clean and simple, and a flavor profile that maybe she's a little bit more familiar with, and something easier to work with. And then as you get to the bottom of the menu, I usually put the bartender's cocktail, like the bartender's bartender's pick. This is a cocktail that, if you're an adventurous drinker, this one's for you. We still try to make it approachable. Yeah, more spirit forwarder. But it's definitely spirit forward. It's maybe a little bittersweet. It's gonna be in the Manhattan to Negroni family. And you're maybe working with some spirits that are a little bit more out there. But we do it because we don't need to sell 20 of those a night. It's at a price point where you only need to really sell one a week or so. And it just gives you that clout on the menu.

47:44But it was so cool for her, just to see her, she was so happy, and it's just like, she, I don't know, it was great. It was great. I loved it. Yeah. And I was like, give me a hug right now. Did it make you think of your journey at all? Yeah, I guess. I guess, I think it's just like, I just feel like now that I've been there for a good amount of time, I just wish and hope that everybody feel as passionate. And I can see that she is. And that's why it just made me so happy that she was so nervous about it. And when she got it, we were like, oh yeah, this is killing it. She's like, seriously? And then like, girl, this is it. We were all like, this is it. You're killing it. And so it was like her, she should be proud of herself is just what it is. My heart is so full right now. Yeah, that's exactly it. It's just like seeing someone succeed. And also like, we do this because bartenders are amazing.

48:46You are an amazing person, Twin. You uplift others. You uplift your team. You make space for people who need someone to make space for them. You're educating others around you. When we deal with challenging guests or challenging coworkers, you have always dealt with it in a way that's sincere. And you gave everybody chances that deserve chances. And then also you learned to stand up for yourself when it was time. And so all of these things cumulatively, when I look at bartenders, these are all the experiences that I find so honorable. These are all the character traits that I admire in bartenders and why my heart is for bartenders. I just have such an admiration for the journey that you've taken. And I know it's been challenging. I know it's not been easy. I know that you struggle to fight and you struggle to let people see your talent.

49:48You're so humble. And I would say not to a fault. I don't think you're humble to a fault. But I think you had to learn how to make sure people see that just because you have humility, that doesn't mean you don't have chops. And you got chops. And so I'm bragging on you because when I've been working in this industry for the amount of time that I have, I've seen a lot of the tear down. I've seen a lot of the frustration of how bartenders can be belittled here and there and how people can look down upon our industry. And you're just a shining star in that. You're someone who's proven, not only is this job legit and a way to make great money, but also there's a team and community aspect that is what we need to do for each other. So I know you don't love the compliment hour.

50:48Next subject. I know, you're so silly. No, you gotta hear it. You gotta hear it sometimes. And I want everyone to know it. And I think also in a lot of restaurants, and I can say this probably for majority of restaurants, that servers actually make more money than bartenders. It happens, yeah. And we do a lot of work. When we come there from beginning to end, we're working our asses off. And I remember from the beginning, when we first were there, it almost felt like we weren't appreciated just because we were working so hard for our money. It's like, why? And people are like, why would you want a bartender instead of a server? It's so much easier and you make more money. But it's like, this is different. When you get on this side, it's different. It's like, we're gonna get there together. And we're gonna find a system that makes it easy. And so as we go on, we have adjusted a lot of things. We've learned a lot of things. We've taken away and added things that are needed.

51:50And it's just fun to see Tiffany, who was a server wanting to come on our side now. Wanting to bartend, yeah. She's like, I'll cross-train, let me come. She's begging for more shifts, too. She's wanting to get into it. I love it. And now the server, I never said they didn't respect us, but they definitely look at us differently. They appreciate how hard we work. Yeah, it's just a lack of knowledge. When somebody doesn't know or understand or know what they're looking at, if you've never worked behind a bar, it's hard to know what, you just, you see someone struggling and you think, oh, it's just because they're a bad bartender. Right. We rarely see someone struggling and know to even think that it could be for another reason. You just kind of think, oh, they're a bad bartender. You don't know what's going on behind the scenes. You don't know it's because no one helped create a syrup system.

52:51No one helped create a prep system that is not time-consuming and can be executed quickly and effectively. They don't know that you're literally just trying to keep your head above water because the structure of the bar lacks organization, and so it's like you're always looking for the thing you need and you never have it. And so people on the outside just see a struggling bartender. They don't see that it's a struggling program that's not helping lift up that bartender. So if you are someone out there who has the opportunity to manage a bar or create bar programs, I encourage you to find ways to uplift your bartenders so that they can make the most money they can per hour and that they feel like they're not just drowning. Because when you feel like you're drowning, number one, you're not gonna be making much money, but number two, you can't output cocktails. So I mean, your speed in the well is I think the best in our team.

53:52I don't feel like that's a surprise. And that's not always the case. Just because someone's the head bartender or lead bartender, their skill set may not be well. I try to create whole programs where everyone's trained to be able to do well, but everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, and there's nothing wrong or shameful about that. You happen to be one of our strongest in well because your multitasking is really, really great. You can talk to the guest in front of you. You can maintain making six drinks at a time while still taking an order for another three. That's what it takes to be a good well bartender. And so yeah, I mean, if you're a manager out there or if you have an opportunity to make a difference in your bartender's world, I suggest finding ways to increase their training, increase their ability to put out cocktails, look at the misimplaus, take ownership of that. They're not a bad bartender just because they don't know how to set up misimplaus. Because probably what it is is that they were trained by a handful of a history of quote unquote bad bartenders.

54:58What do you think about that? What does misimplaus mean, first of all? Well, I think that along the line of what you were just saying, I think for us to execute the most that we can and the quickest that we can, definitely organization is the main thing. Preparation, obviously. If you're not organized, you're gonna continuously looking for things and that every second you lose, two seconds add up, two seconds don't seem a lot, but it definitely adds up. And then preparation, you don't wanna go in the middle of the shift and run out of something. That five minutes gonna kill you. And once you're drowning, you're under. And that's not a good feeling. And it just doesn't make you enjoy the environment, like the work. And then that's when you get frustrated also. So I think like with our system, at least, I think we have come to just, when I come in, I like to be overly prepared, like too much prepared.

56:01So I just, I think that's how we get our drinks out fast, how we sell so many cocktails. It's like, it's not even like a restaurant. It's like a club in there. How much people drink is they drink. But then we're also, those drinks aren't gonna make us enough money if we don't pay attention to our guests also. So we definitely have to find a system to get us all the preparation we need, all the organization we need. And then after that comes the speed. When you get all that, your speed's gonna be quicker because you already know where everything is. So speed, it sounds like, is a product of organization. Speed is a result of, you know, I see lots of bartenders that are like, I'm fast, I'm super fast. Every bartender's kind of fast until you get into a new bar. And you're like, oh, I don't know where anything lives. And actually, Robert talked about this off air. He was saying how much he loves the idea in this industry of like talking about where something lives, that things live in places.

57:05Like, where's this thing's home? Yeah. And like, that terminology is kinda key. Everything has a home. Everything has a home. And that's what Miz & Plus is. Miz & Plus means a place for everything and a thing for every place. So yeah, I mean, you've executed that very well. I think that the way our bar is structured helps you get those cocktails out fast. What else in our program has helped you keep your head above water? So after, we have the batching system, which is amazing. I used to was so against it. Oh, really? Yeah, because I was like, this is not how you make drinks. You have to pour everything separately. But no, I mean, it works great. It makes sense. It's not like we're putting citrus in a drink, let it sit for five days, you know? We still have to do multiple touches on the bottles because our cocktails are actually very... Elevated? Elevated. And there's several, there's a lot of ingredients in our cocktails. They're complex. There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

58:07So yeah, I think the batching system definitely helped a lot. If not, it's probably the main thing that saves us. And then after that, honestly, even like the garnishing, like the sugar and spice drink, it has a sugar rim. And I literally am like, why am I gonna rim every glass when I make it? Why don't I just rim four of them at a time? And so when it gets busy, I just grab a glass that's already rimmed. And I'm setting what you need. Exactly. That's setting yourself up for success. So it's just something small like that. And you know, even training the bar back, like, hey, I always need four to five rim sugar rim just because we sell so many of those cocktails also. And so, you know, when I turn around, I see, you know, rim glass, I don't have to spend the extra three seconds doing this. So that definitely adds up that gets our cocktails out and just small things like that. It all adds up. And most definitely, communication with your teammates too helps a lot. We do have to run and get like edamame, miso soups, and things like that.

59:12So if you, you know, if one person leave not communicate with the other, then the other person leaves to go get the same things. Like, you know, you can do it at the same time. Yeah, maximize your trip, maximize everything. So things like that definitely helps out and goes a long way at least. I mean, some of this stuff is like one-on-one bartending, but if you're a good bartender, you kind of do it intuitively and you don't know why you're doing it. You just know it works and so you do it. And maybe you do know why, but you're just doing it. We try to do it with intention so that way we can pass off these traits to our greener bartenders and make sure that we're actually raising up a, you know, and I want to say an army, but raising up a team that is going to hold down the fort so we can have support. And so that you don't have to have necessarily like five bartenders on in a shift to like split tips five ways. Like you can run it with two to three people and make sure that everybody is hopefully making what they need if you're training those bartenders.

01:00:16It does require patience though. It does. Because some of those greener bartenders, they're trying to get there, but it does take time. What does that look like for you? Cause like, it's hard. It is hard. It affects your money. Especially when it comes to like a tip pool. It is hard because you've been there, you know, years longer and you know, somebody come in and they barely know the setup or the menu or whatever. And you end up having to split the money evenly. It is challenging and you know, but I don't know, you gotta, it's hard to explain. Some days obviously are better than others. Some days, you know, you're like, why am I splitting my money? They're, you know, doing like 25% of the job. But then, you know, you gotta think of the long run and then the teamwork also, and then the believing in that person also. Like, you know, we have a pretty strong team. I feel like we believe everybody that's in our team will get to that point, you know?

01:01:18And it does take time. It does take patience. Yeah. But I think it will come, you know? But again, everybody's good in their own little categories. Yeah. They might be better at me in some other things, you know? Yeah, yeah. Just because I'm quicker in the world don't mean I'm the best at serving the bar top or whatever. Yeah, which you are fabulous at serving the bar top. You have some, you have more regulars than anybody in the restaurant, I would say. So. There's like some people, like maybe a server or two that might compete with you in regulars, but you get so many daily regulars that just keep coming back for you. I think what you're saying is very important for us to get across as an important message because if you want a teammate that is going to work at your level and work at your pace, you can army yell them into it. You can be like, stop sucking. You know, like get it together.

01:02:18You know, you can kind of be a jerk. And I was talking with Preston about a bartender that I worked with that was extremely challenging. Sometimes it was because I think he wanted to test me and see if I could pull through and it would maybe encourage me to get better. And sometimes I think it's because he was just like a very old school mindset of if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. Rather than let me see if you can, let me help you do this. Let me encourage you, let me build you up. That's my mindset because I'm a teacher. So anyway, there was one, my first night that I had to work well in a craft cocktail bar. This was a craft cocktail bar that did not do batching. I was a pretty baby bartender, I would say a baby craft bartender. I'd been in the industry for a long time, but I had never been a craft bartender until this. And it was my first time to ever work well. And these cocktails had like sometimes nine bottle touches and which, let me just tell you guys, Nashville has come a long way.

01:03:21We figured out, you know, to get this together. If it takes 20 minutes to get your drink, it's too freaking long. Stop, get it, like make this practical. Guests need to drink a drink. The best drink is the drink in your hand. So anyway, it was a really challenging bar to work and I was trying to get good at it and he came up to me before the shift and twin, he told me that if I needed to ask for help, he said, if you have to ask for help even once, I want you to walk straight out that back door. And he's not the boss, he wasn't, he's just a bartender. And he told me this and I don't know if he did it intentionally, I don't know if he was trying to like light a fire under my ass, but I heard this and I was like, I'm gonna never, I'm gonna do everything, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna do everything. Does anyone need a light bulb change while I'm making cocktails? I'm gonna do extra. I'm gonna do every thing. And at the end of the night, he said, you did a pretty good job.

01:04:22And I was like, okay, I'll take it. He's like, you have nothing to be mad about for that night. It was your first night in the well on a Friday night. It was a Friday night, by the way. And for the audience, anybody who's listening, who's never bartended before, to help give you a little bit of perspective. Also, if you've ever worked in a kitchen before, something similar happens with your tickets. When your tickets build up, the first ticket in your lineup, maybe at time start, the timestamp is at zero. The next ticket, you've already taken three minutes to make that ticket. So now the next ticket is already, you're starting it at three minutes. So then the next ticket after that, you're starting it at five minutes. And so depending on how many cocktails are on each ticket, there's times when you're picking up a ticket and you're already working out of a hole. That's why when Twin says, those two seconds matter, those two seconds matter. Everything is right here right now, get those drinks out. And so I took this rather discouraging challenge and was like, I'm gonna just do everything.

01:05:30But what it unfortunately develops is this idea that you can't ask for help. And I don't think that that's, I mean, it's bad communication skills. And it honestly makes a worse bar. It might make a good bartender, because it might make you a better bartender as an individual, but it makes for a bad bar. It sounds like a jerk. Did I say that? He knows, he knows. He would admit to that. But also, I'm grateful because I think in the time that I worked with this person, I feel like I made a difference in his mind. He was somebody who originally had told me that women shouldn't work behind a bar. And by the time I ended up completing my work with him, it was probably four or five years later. And he was very happy to work with me, proud to work with me, and said that I did a really good job. So it's not our job, me and you as women, to fix men and fix their attitudes and correct the insanity that's woven into their brains from a society that makes them think that this behavior is okay.

01:06:40But because of the nature of the beast and the fact that I wanted to prove myself, I just, he happened to learn a lesson right then and there. Whether I wanted to teach the lesson or not, he learned it. I really think that when you tell me about your story and your life, I don't get all of the overarching story. I just get little peaks into your story, because you are very protective of your story. And I think that that's a choice. I think this is a way that you have survived and maybe a technique for keeping going, keeping moving. So I respect that and I'll continue to respect that. But is there places in your story that you wanna share that have been a moment like that, like what I experienced with this bartender where it was just like, not only did I prove myself to him, but I proved something to myself. I think you have lots of them, but is there something in particular that sticks out to you?

01:07:44I think it goes back to my culture a little bit. I don't think obviously restaurant in general job is respected. I know that is when we move from our country to here, that is one thing that everybody does, but it's still looked down upon, if that makes sense. It's because we have no other options that we open restaurants when we migrate here. But then somehow in between that, you're still looked down because you're serving, you're doing a service for people, you're serving people. So, I mean, it's just a weird, so I never really want to talk too much about it. Personally, I think it's great, but I feel like to me, I have to prove myself a little more before I speak more about it because I think it will change and it has changed. And I know I started doing cocktail competitions a while back. You've been killing it in those.

01:08:46So, I always put myself kind of in a hold almost. I'm scared to just go out there because I'm like, what is gonna happen? People are gonna judge me, people are gonna say something. Am I not gonna win because I'm Asian? Are they gonna score me differently because I'm a female or I'm new at this or whatever? So, I just remember my first competition that I did and Brandon, who is amazing. Who's Brandon? Brandon's the head bartender over at Oak. He is amazing, he's so supportive. He came with me, he gave me that comfort. I went and then we ended up going to Palm Springs after that one for- To compete again. To compete for the nationals, which is amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. But I just remember after I left that, I was like, holy crap, what did I just do? I was like, did I just put myself out there like that?

01:09:46I was like, that was so weird. But then I loved it so much because I was like, hell yeah. I was like, I freaking did that. You did. I know. And so I think that was another turning point for me also. And I'm like, I just need to put myself out there. I need to believe in myself, whatever people's society think or my culture, religion, or whatever race, whatever people think. You just need to go out there and just do it. Believe in yourself, change what people think, who care what people think. And then along the line, down the road, hopefully we'll all be on the same page with that. And you're doing it. But again, I don't want to talk too much into that until I feel there's still a long way to go, at least for me personally, but I feel it's going. You are making those differences in this industry. I mean, I think when I look at everything you've done and unlike people that have come in, there's guests that we've had that have been inappropriate or rude.

01:10:51And it happens all the time, guys. This is not a weird anomaly. This happens every day. Maybe not every single day, every moment of every day, but frequently we have somebody who's just, they're not seeing you. And sometimes it's a microaggression. Sometimes it's a small way of talking down, whether because you're a bartender, a woman, or a person of color, they'll find a way to just belittle you a little bit. And it's nothing you can call out. It's nothing you can complain about. It's nothing you can, you know, but it's happening. It happens. And your money is coming from this person. So you kind of, you eat crow a little bit and you deal with it. But the way that you operate and the job that you perform is so excellent and so professional that people who have their issues, they really have to, they have to deal with it. They have to eat it. I've been watching a lot of RuPaul's Drag Race and Latrice is always saying, eat it.

01:11:57She shows up, she is a very large woman, black woman, and she is like, I mean, she's a black man. She's a large, and she's showing up in drag and she's just like, eat it. Eat it, take it all in and eat it. And I think that's what you do when you show up and you are just killing it in these competitions. You're killing it in the well. You're killing it with your guests. When we've had, just recently, we had a bar back that was not fitting for the job. We'll just say it that way. And it hit a chord with me because he was extremely disrespectful to you. And he also had worked shifts at Oak where Brandon is the head bartender. And even though you and Brandon hold the same standard, somehow it's okay when Brandon tells him stuff. But when you tell him to do his job, it's an issue. The lack of self-awareness to see, well, Twin just is more, she just gets on with me more than anybody else.

01:13:01Are you for real? So I was pretty, I went from being, realizing that he wasn't right for the job and realizing that he wasn't doing his work to like, you are so oblivious to your ignorance and it's sick, it's gross. I mean, I was literally walking on eggshells and then he would get angry and then I have to come back and apologize. I'm like, why am I, you know? And I'm like, please, just don't yell at me. Just, can you help polish the glasses? Can you please do the job that's in front of you? And then it's like, why, what are you, I'm like, I don't know, just do whatever you want. And this person had never bartended before, never worked in this industry on this level before and was assuming that, oh yeah, I can do what you do in a matter of weeks. Even though I told him from day one that he would not even come close to bartending for a minimum of six months. And you know what, and that's fine. If he walks in there and whoever else in the future, if that's what you wanna do, prove it to us.

01:14:04We're not saying like, you can't just do it first. Show us. You know, I'm like, can you grab a bottle of, you know, Haku vodka? And he's like, a what? It's like, you know, so. You haven't learned where things live. You haven't learned the mise en place of the space. And you're being just, it's no big deal to have a learning curve for this stuff. I don't mind people learning or not knowing where stuff is. It's the arrogance and the attitude when you don't know stuff. Definitely. It's like, where's your humility, my dude? Yeah, but it was, it was, and I knew and I feel that it's because I am like a woman, especially a smaller woman too, compared to him. And I just feel like that was his chance of like, you know, I can talk back to you. Demonstrating power. Yeah, yell or talk over you or, you know, things like that. And it's, you know, it's all right. This is a, it's a something, now this one is a daily occurrence. This isn't something that happens like once a week.

01:15:04This happens every day in our industry. I, I think that I have a lot of issues and quote unquote PTSD. Not even quote, like I have PTSD from abusive dudes in our industry. We had a guy who I'm gonna leave, it'll remain nameless, throw some stuff behind the bar, just because he was frustrated. You know what I'm talking about. He was frustrated with when you came into the bar and didn't greet him with a bright and shining smile. And a hello, you were just like, hey, why are you putting this over here? It was really as simple as that. And maybe your tone was pretty direct and you didn't sugar coat it and have like a syrup all over it. But then he went from being irritated to literally throwing stuff at me. Yeah, like, well, he threw a bunch of stuff. He like threw the thing into the sink.

01:16:07Yeah. It's like, I wish that every guy in this industry, if you are a good dude, if you're an even half decent guy, I really think that you have an ability to create a safe space for women. You have an option. Now, you don't have to take that option to like some extreme. All it is is just like, are you going to allow this to happen when you see it? Or are you gonna say, hey, dude, you don't have to get violent. Like, it's not that I thought the very next step was gonna be that he hits you or me or someone else. It's that this demonstration of power that something didn't quite go your way is so toxic. And for me, I've actually talked about, with a lot of women about this, there's times when guys just raise their voice, not even at me. They're not even yelling at me, but they're just raising their voice.

01:17:07And I can feel the hairs on the back of my neck or my arms like stand up of like, okay, be aware. There's danger in the air. And I may or may not be affected by it, but just be on your toes. And as women, we are constantly having to deal with this. I've come from some abusive relationships and abusive situations. And I won't speak for you, I'll speak for myself, that while that is completely a different situation, and that's not the bar world, the bar world sometimes justifies that behavior and forces you to kind of just deal with it and act like it's okay. I think our biggest mistake that day is that we didn't fire that person right then and there. Now, I love that person as an individual, but that's behavior that we no longer tolerate. And so we just learned a lesson. And that person I think was also apologetic for, but saying sorry and then doing it again later, it just doesn't fix it.

01:18:12So now we have a standard. And so the second that that bar back is like being disrespectful, it's like, bye. Literally. Bye. And so I don't want to sit here and talk down or talk bad about men or anything like that either. I love men. There's amazing gentlemen, like Ben. Brandon that you just talked about, Ben that you just talked about, Preston and Robert who were just on the show for everybody. Yeah, there's wonderful men. There's men we love and appreciate it. It's just all we're asking is just, women are a little bit sensitive sometimes, but that's not really true. It's just we want you to understand what is right and wrong also. Yeah, we're in tune. It's like sensitive is not a dirty word, but we're in tune. Like the fact that as soon as you're yelling in the room, like we're aware, it's like, okay, what's happening next? Yeah, we're sensitive to like what is happening, not sensitive as in feelings.

01:19:16Yeah, we're not weak. Yes, and we're not weak anymore. Women are learning to stand up for themselves. That's just all we're asking. Let's be on the same page. Yeah, create space for the people around you. We appreciate you, so you appreciate us too. Yeah, I think Brandon does a really good job of that, making space. Preston in the last interview, which hopefully if you guys are listening to this interview, you can check out some of the others that we've done so far. He was big on making space for others, and he gave an example of that. It's not a matter of like every single day being like, let me make this woman my project. Right, no, definitely not. No, I'm not looking for you to be like my big strong warrior. I just need you to see when you're not giving me amplification for my voice and when you're drowning me out. And how do you uplift others? How do you uplift the people around you?

01:20:17I know as a white woman, I have a handful of, I know I have a handful of challenges, but I also have a handful of privileges. And so I'm gonna use that privilege to be able to speak for other people. And for what it's worth, I think that the opportunities that I've had with you and with Oku in general have been a real big lesson for me. And when I wasn't doing a good enough job, listening to others and letting bartenders feel heard and uplifting others. So I'm always learning. I'm always growing. I could literally talk to you all day. We should have. I don't have to go to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, we're calling out guys. We're calling out from work. So if you wanna go to Oku, we're closed. No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding. It would be pounding the door down. Right? No, I'm really grateful that you made time to talk with me today.

01:21:19Is there, I'm gonna ask you the same two questions I've been asking everybody else. So number one, what is something that bartenders can do better in this industry? What's like something that we need to be doing better, be more aware of to help us, whether it's help us make more money or help us make better cocktails, whatever that is. And then the second one is a bigger question. And so you can take your time with it, but how can the industry be doing better by you? How can the industry be treating you better for your situation as a woman, as a person of color, whatever it is, or just as a human being who is quirky and wonderful and strong? How can the industry be doing better? I know it's a big question. Well, I guess number one, what was it again now? The first one is what can you do for bartenders? What can bartenders be doing better? I think bartenders could educate themselves a little more.

01:22:21Education. Education for sure. Not, you don't have to read a whole encyclopedia, just small little things. I always tell, you know, during lineup, just pick a couple words and stick to it, you know? So that's one, I think, just accuracy, cleanliness, preparation, teamwork for sure. But yeah, I think all of those work going together will, you know, get that speed, put out the drinks, get the guests coming, get the guests going so you get more guests. Yeah, back to like the core, the basics of bartending. Right, that way, you know, at the end, you make more money. And then just the environment itself, you know, support each other, your teammate, make sure you have a good area that you want to walk into. Don't feel like you're pressured to be at that place. If you feel like you're pressured at work, you probably should get another job. Yeah. I think it's a fun job. It's a good job.

01:23:22It's a rewarding job, so you shouldn't feel like you're obligated to be at any bar if you are unhappy there at least. Yeah. Is that answer enough? Yeah, totally, 100%. Yeah, and then also I think the system for the bar is very important too. You know, setting up a good cocktail preparation type of thing, the prep system or the juicing system, the syrup system, that's extremely important. It can be time consuming if you don't do it correctly. So, and then you can also overwork yourself if you're not doing it correctly too. Yeah, wasting your time. Exactly, so I think that's very important also. And then to the second question. I guess I think I would love for there to be a lot more women who stands up and speak out.

01:24:25You know, my race, any race, of color, why it doesn't really matter to me. I just think women should speak out more. I think we need to start feeling respected with this job because it is deserving. It is worthy, you are worthy. You are worthy. Don't feel less of yourself because you're a bartender because I'm sure you're killing it. You're probably making a lot more money than whoever else that's talking down to you. And you're also enjoying your job, you take off. It's such a flexible job. So I think women should stand up for themselves for sure and speak out more and you know, just doing these little things like this just put us on like a platform at least. And again, I typically wouldn't put myself in this kind of situation. I'm glad you did.

01:25:26I know, but then one more important thing. I think women should always support women. That's one of my big thing too. I always feel that women does challenge each other and compete with each other a lot, especially in this industry just because it's so. Cutthroat. Yeah. So I just feel like if women can support each other more and be as a group and stand up for each other, you know. Yeah. Making space for other people. So like, yeah, there was a chef that, I wish I could remember her name. I was on a panel for Gentleman Jack. It was like a international women's day. And it was actually the day after the big tornado. And I had to speak in this panel and one of the chefs on the panel, I'm so sad I can't remember her name. But she said that when she first started in the industry and made it to a level of leadership, another woman would come into the kitchen and herself as a chef, she was like, she went through all of this abuse and rough talk and kitchen vibes and the same things that we were talking about, like where men assume that you have to go through, they get so grotesque in the kitchen.

01:26:55The conversation, the quote unquote walker talk, it's like, yeah, I can handle it. I can talk like the boys, I can keep up with everybody else and you almost have to be more or worse than anybody else around you. And so we kind of participate in this culture just to like make it even, you know, like to like not seen as like precious or like you gotta walk around on eggshells around me. And rather than them, rather than them just making a choice to make it a safer, more comfortable place for others, they make it as uncomfortable as possible. And so she said that when she got to a level of leadership, she thought she had to do the same thing. So she said as a woman, she was harder on the women that came to work with her. And she, cause she thought if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, you gotta deal with the same stuff I dealt with to make it where you're gonna make it. And she realized she was like, I'm just, I'm continuing the levels of abuse that I experienced and had to survive and she lost people who worked in the kitchen with her. And that could have been amazing chefs.

01:27:58And so yeah, if women support women, she had this realization and it was a really powerful moment to be like, I gotta stop. The buck stops with me, the buck stops here. Like if everybody else has those issues, they can have those issues somewhere else. If I see a woman struggling or having an ego problem or dealing with all of these different conflictions where they're like trying to prove themselves, I need to remove the atmosphere where they feel like they have to perform or like prove themselves to me. I love that. Yeah, I mean, it just, we make space for each other. Yeah, it really meant a lot when I heard her input on that, that kind of like, I was like, yeah, that's true. We do, we were made to survive a lot and we have to be better than the boys. You have to be better than anybody else around you. I don't wanna be the best female bartender out there. I wanna be the best bartender out there, period. Right. And so yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I know you're right. Well, Twin, I love you with all my heart.

01:28:59You too. You are so important to me. I do a late night sesh one time. Yeah, I want to. Oh my gosh, we can totally do that. That would be fun. Yeah, I think it'd be really cool to get us in here. We could actually get a couple of bartenders in here and do it. We got four mics. Let's do it. Well, I hope that if you're working tonight, guys, that you make a lot of money. Thank you. Shift. We will. And clean glasses with me one more time. I love you. All right, guys, that's the end of this episode. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you're gonna go work tonight, make a lot of money and cheers. Bye. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'm really appreciative of every single person that has come in here to sit across this table with me and talk about this industry. We have a special project in front of us. Bartending is important. And letting bartenders feel seen and heard is what I'm all about. So if you enjoyed this session, I hope that you'll keep listening.

01:30:01We've got some more episodes coming out every Wednesday. We're doing a six-part series here. So keep listening. Let me know what you think. If you're feeling like you're not seen and if you want to be seen and this is your industry, message me, get the conversation going. There is parts about this industry that I don't know about. I've worked in this industry for a long time, but everybody deserves to be seen and heard. And I'm really grateful to Brandon Styll for making this happen. So thank you all for listening. And I hope that you'll get ready for another excellent episode coming up. We'll have some more good stuff in the works. And so I'm really excited to keep sharing these stories with you. Thank you.