The Gospel of Cocktail Podcast with Kala Ellis-Brandon Thomason-Maraschiello

00:00Hey everybody, thank you so much for tuning in to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast. My name is Brandon Styll and I host Nashville Restaurant Radio. Wanna tell you about a brand new sponsor we have, Justice Industries and Just.Glass. So one of the main things that you're doing out there as bartenders and restaurant owners is, we're creating waste, wine bottles, beer bottles, just any kind of glass that's gonna get thrown into a trash can, 95% of glass does not get recycled. What they do is, let me tell you about their mission and it is amazing. Justice Industries is a nonprofit organization that creates social enterprise businesses. They seek to employ those who find it difficult to obtain and retain work because of barriers such as criminal history, addiction recovery, mental illness, domestic abuse, and generational poverty. Their largest industry is Just.Glass and they offer curbside pickup for your glass recycling. One of their main focuses right now is working with restaurants to continue this mission.

01:00So when you sign up for Just.Glass, you're not only helping the environment but you're helping employ people who need jobs. That's hard for them to get jobs. I love this mission that they have. It is super easy to sign up. All you have to do is go to justiceindustries.com and then there's a button, you just click on the sign up for Just.Glass, you can do it all online. If you'd like to talk to a person, Ellen Peterson, she is their director and let me tell you her email address. It's Ellen, E-L-L-E-N at justiceindustries.org. That's how it is. That's so easy. So if you work for a restaurant or a bar and you love to start recycling glass, tell your manager or if you are the manager or you're the owner, please go to justiceindustries.com right now. It was justiceindustries.org. I'm saying it the wrong way. It is justiceindustries.org and you can sign up right now to have your glass picked up. You need to go do it. Thank you and enjoy this episode with Kayla Ellis and the Gospel of Cocktail.

02:03Welcome to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast. Now here's your host, Kayla Ellis. Welcome everybody to the Gospel of Cocktail podcast. This is Kayla Ellis. I'm your host. Super excited today because we're actually getting to talk with one of the coolest people in Nashville. This is Brandon Thomason Marcello and I absolutely am so excited because this person is just dope. He's running the bar at O's Steakhouse. So we're gonna get into some fun stuff with him today and hopefully we don't get too emotional. So watch out for that. But thank you guys for listening and let's get into it. Welcome, Brandon. All situated, we're recording. So don't be freaked out. We're there already. Yeah. I think it's nice to like start recording so you can just be like, oh, this is just talking.

03:03A secret start. It's our sneaky start. You had no idea. Nice. Am I allowed to cuss on this? Yes. Okay, cool. Yeah, it's so funny that everybody asked that but I think it's that we're all trained. Like in the industry, we're trained to watch how we talk. I have two modes for sure. Yeah. The cursing and the not cursing. Is this a good time to, okay, we already kind of clinked. Okay, well clink. Clink. Welcome everybody. This is Brandon Thomason Marcello. Did I say that right? Close enough. Marcello. I've heard now even from the family, multiple pronunciations. So Marcello. Marcello, okay. Marcello every once in a while. Oh, what's the right one? What's the right one? I have no idea. It is now my last name and I don't know exactly. I see it. I'm like Marcello. I think it's Marcello. Yeah, that's what I hear the most. Yeah. His wife Jess is a wonderful Italian background woman and so she, so that's, they've got a hyphenated name which I think is dope.

04:05Yeah, when we were getting married, Jess was like, you know, I really love my last name. I think it's really cool and I'd like to keep it. And I was like, well, I think I'd like a little slice of that as well. Can you cut me in on that? Absolutely. Can you cut me in on that Italian name? I think it's dope. Yeah, yeah. I think that's sick. Well, I'm so excited. Oh my gosh, everybody. I'm talking to one of my favorite people in the whole world. I've said this every episode, but don't tell the others. You truly are one of my favorite people in the whole world. Now I believe it. It's true. This is not only one of my very, very best friends, but also he is the head bartender of Oak Steakhouse. I've known you for like eight years. Yeah, at least now, maybe even longer. Yeah. It's been a long time. We've gotten a chance to work together in a handful of different places, and it's been so much fun. Honestly, an honor to be able to say that you work with me.

05:06Well, you know, just the other day, somebody in the industry I was texting back and forth with, and I was like, for a cocktail competition, and I'm like, oh, this is Brandon, and I'm Kayla's friend, and he was like, oh yeah, no, I know you. He's like, Kayla really has a hell of a crew around here. Yeah. Made me feel really good. We roll deep. For sure, for sure. I love that. I love that so much. It makes me proud. Folks might get a kick out of this, but like, yeah, this morning, I was like, I'm nervous. I'm gonna be on a podcast. I've never done this before. I was like, what if I don't have anything to say? And so Jess was laughing because she was like, yeah, you and Kayla will have plenty to talk about. You and I talk probably two hours a day. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, so much so that, like, I just didn't, I haven't talked with you in a couple of days, just because. I was worried. I was like, are you mad at me? He straight up asked me. He was like, are you mad at me? This is the friendship that I have. I wouldn't trade it for the world. This is, you're just one of my, seriously, favorite human beings. Very nice.

06:06So what we're drinking real quick, we clinked glasses. It's a heavy glass, so it didn't give a good, it didn't give like the resounding clink that I like, but it's a spiritless, a, I think it's called a horse's kick ginger syrup, or horse's kick ginger syrup, and it's pretty spicy. It's pretty kickin'. It does bring the heat. Yeah, and then Ritual makes a zero-proof gin. So we're drinking zero-proof this morning. My friend Brandon is not a drinker, which. Not anymore. That's the way to say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a drinker anymore, for sure. Yeah, yeah, you are a drinker. We have tested and proved this, you and I both. Yeah, we have definitely had plenty of drinks together in the past. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, it's been about now almost two years coming up on it. Oh my gosh, congratulations. I was so, we knew that it was coming.

07:06We knew that there was gonna be a day where you're like, this isn't right for me. And you predicted it several times, like, hmm, it's coming. I'm gonna have to cut this out. I probably knew three years before I quit drinking that I would eventually quit drinking. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like going to work feeling hungover and then being like, you know, I'm a bartender. I have access to a little something to get me past this hangover. Yeah. Turned into, you know, I can't do that forever. You can't, no, it's not sustainable. Yeah. And in the episode that is coming next, we've already recorded it, but the audience won't hear it until I think, not this next Wednesday, but the following Wednesday possibly, with Laura from the Fox. She's an incredible head bartender over there. And she's not a heavy drinker, but she, I think, drinks a little bit more similarly to me, where I often don't finish cocktails. I am okay to taste. I know you're okay to taste, but you don't go seek out cocktails.

08:08Yeah. And she was saying, she was like, I'm not pretentious about it. I'm not gonna be holier than thou. I'm not gonna belittle people for wherever they are in their experience for drinking because they're a different person. And she was like, it's both so boring and very important at the same time. So we had a little bit of a convo about that. But before we get too much into that side of things, I wanna hear from you about your journey getting into bartending. Oh yeah. We've kind of started every episode with that. Well, funny enough, I think you've been there for pretty much all of it. Yeah, so you know, I started in the industry real young. Yeah. My first job, well, my first job was Kroger. They quickly fired me from that. I was terrible with Kroger employees. Sorry to all the Kroger employees out there who do such a great job. And then I went and became a host at Princeton's Grill, which no longer exists, but it was over in Bellevue.

09:12Okay. And from there, I did everything from dishwashing, line cook, fry cook, all the works at various restaurants until I landed at Tumbleweed in Bowling Green, where I got to wear an awesome bolo tie. Oh, nice. I applied for back of the house. They were like, we don't need anybody back at the house. Put me up front. And from there, I just, I was a server all the way up until I met you at Grey's. And I had sworn I would never be a bartender. I was like, I'm not interested. It looks like a lot of work. Yeah, it is a lot of work. It is a lot of work for sure. And, but then when you took over the program, it was because of you that I became a bartender. It just looked so much more exciting. I saw your passion. I saw how much you cared about it and all the artistry that goes into it. And funny enough, it just started with me making my own garnishes.

10:13And I was like, I'm gonna have the best garnishes of all the other servers here. And at that point, I was like, okay, well, I might as well get back there. I'm getting into this. Yeah, and I remember telling our manager at the time, I'm like, all right, well, I just wanna do like one or two shifts back there. And he was like, yeah, that's all I have for you is just one shift. And like the next week, I was a full-time bartender. That's how it always goes. That's how it always goes. Yeah. Well, I realized just as you were telling that story, I was like, oh, I'm gonna cry this episode, aren't I? I was, dang it. Yeah, I heard that. Immediately, I felt the emotions coming up when you were like, yeah. So yeah, we've got a long legacy of bartending together. I think that watching you bartend and honestly having your connection at the bar, there's a couple of bartenders over the years that had my back or just encouraged me to keep going despite the kind of garbage that's out there because there's also bartenders who straight up told me I shouldn't bartend because I'm a woman and like flat out, put it that way.

11:21It's one of the funniest things to kind of realize of like they didn't hide their cards at all. They were like, yeah, women shouldn't be a bartender. Like, wow, just flat out that way. And you were one of the people that honestly made me keep going. You gave me advice constantly of like, yeah, do you, okay. Yeah, we're gonna definitely cry this episode. I told you, I told you. This is why I love you though, because like it's not an accident. I told this to you already. It's not an accident. You're the only white straight man that I've had on this show so far. It's not like I have anything against white straight men. It's just legitimately we have six episodes to start this thing off and potentially more episodes to go. And so I wanted to be really thoughtful about who I invited to this stage when we are given a platform and who needs their voice amplified. So if you're gonna be a white straight dude, be like Brandon, be like Brandon. Be okay to cry when it's time to cry. Be okay to be like full of emotion and love and passion.

12:22You know, really, you know, in saying that, definitely it, I am glad that you've been intentional about that because the reality of the bar situation is that we don't need to amplify a bunch of like straight white guys. Like that voice is plenty out there. In the craft cocktail world especially, yeah. Yeah, and you know, a shout out to somebody that we work with now, our bar back Maggie, you know, had said when I was like, yeah, I've gone through this journey and I've had people like Kayla and like Jess and like my sister, you know, to help me better understand like the experience of others, you know, around me. And she put it to me rather succinctly that, yeah, you know, that's really great but we, in order to have like a decent man out there, it really shouldn't have to be a collection of women who fixed him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not a job to fix somebody.

13:24But what I love is that your growth and who you are as a person and your decision to grow was based in friendships. And I really believe in that. I truly, you know how I am. Like I really believe community and our connection with one another and having each other's back is what makes us a better person. It's what makes us grow. I mean, I could be in another industry. I could see myself in another industry. I love bartending. So I don't want to see myself in another industry at this point, but I was a teacher and I've done other like potential things in the art world. But you still are a teacher. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge part of why I continue to, like why I will follow you wherever you go. I mean, I always say this, like I'm totally happy to ride your coattails to success and it's worked out so far. But that's why I became a bartender is because you had such a cool program. You had such a cool atmosphere. Like the things that you center in your programs, you know, are amazing.

14:29And I like that when I come to work for you, I know what that program is going to look like. I know what the priorities of the bar are. And funny enough, it's not making cocktails, you know, like cocktails are definitely there. I think we make excellent cocktails. I think we have really cool drinks, but I know that that's not the first priority realistically. And I love that about you and about your programs. What would, so, I mean, thank you. I like that. I'll always be grateful that you've bought in, that you're in it. Yeah. And I don't know how I got so lucky, and don't give me another compliment. I can see you getting ready to give me another compliment. Well, I know I've said this before, but I'm like, somehow you managed to get people to do what you were trying to get them to do the first time around, but make it their own idea. I really am an evil genius and no one knows it. Well, yeah, you would make a great evil genius. Yeah, for sure.

15:30But yeah, I would love to kind of hear for, and for people listening who create programs or are in bar programs, and maybe are not knowing what they're missing, or like not knowing what something's off and they can't tell what it is necessarily. What do you think when we create a program, and now, honestly, truthfully, when you create a program, not just me, you embody some of this in the next level, because you also make it your own. So Oak Steakhouse, I think is, as much as I've put into it, this is a program that you have constructed and are there day to day to uphold. So what are some of those priorities? So I think easily we can break it down into two things. One, you know, something I was really proud to hear about our program is we had a relatively new hire. She was on for a few weeks, and I overheard her say to somebody like, in the 15 years I've been in the industry, this program is the first one where I can ask as many questions as I want and not be made to feel stupid.

16:43And so I think that's a huge part of it is like sharing our information, like not protecting it, not putting it behind a firewall and keeping it like some closely guarded secret, especially with other bartenders, like we should be telling every other bartender, like I learned about this new, anything from a new technique or it could just be like old classics, you know, and understanding that people come from different types of bartending. So when they land in your bar, it's the team's job to support them and give them everything that they can, you know, everything that they need and everything that we have for them at their fingertips and to make sure that they feel encouraged to ask questions, to not have to do, I mean, I think bartenders kind of know that feeling where you walk behind and, you know, every bartender has to like prove how cool they are, how much they know. It's exhausting. Yeah, yeah. And so one thing that I know you say all the time, or, you know, the word that I hear come out is like drop the ego, let's see humility.

17:44And so I think humility would be a huge piece of like what we do. Understanding that like, you don't have to be everything behind that bar. You need to understand that different teammates bring different, you know, different powers to the game. Yeah, different skill sets, different strengths, different weaknesses. I think that's a huge thing. And then secondly, I think from a leadership position, I know we've said this before, but as a leader, I feel like you owe more to your team than you should ever ask your team to owe back to you. 100%. So I'm not gonna ask anybody to be at the bar more than me or giving more at the bar than I give. Yeah. Yeah, it's my responsibility to support the team, not the team's responsibility to elevate their boss basically. Exactly. When I think about this, I am so proud because I've always had like this in places like, places we've worked together in the past and over the years, places we've worked.

18:49We had a mentality of the buck stops here. Like other parts of the restaurant may struggle with what they're going to struggle with. They're gonna have some ego, some, you know, inflated garbage built up to like, you know, struggle with the management, struggle with the server, struggle over here. And I really wanted this idea of like, okay, I understand that that's what's going on in our space, but I don't have sphere of influence over that part. I have sphere of influence over the bar. So we had this mentality of like the buck stops here. And I do believe that we embody that mentality and other people did up their game. I do think that I saw more communication and increased generosity and patience with servers and other folks just because we embodied that behind the bar. I love that. I think I love that you just brought up like showing generosity, patience with the serving staff because again, like coming from serving, and then I think most bartenders, certainly servers know that moment when they go to ask the bartender something and they have to be afraid.

20:00They have to be like, oh, you know, am I gonna ask them like what garnish goes on this and I'm gonna get some kind of like look or yeah. And I try to remind myself and remind the other bartenders like we touch this every day. Like I have my hands in the well. I know where every bottle is. I know what goes in this, like that's what I do. The servers have other priorities that just like the kitchen does and everything else. And so we wanna make sure that we're not making them feel stupid just for asking a question on a thing that they don't understand. Yeah, this isn't their job to understand that. I mean, to a certain degree, there is a place where it becomes their job and where someone's just intentionally not doing the work. But if they're not gonna do the work, and hopefully this is honestly an example of like you getting into bartending was just me nerding out in the well. And because I did the work, you wanted to do the work. You wanted to learn the garnishes. And I think that other people did that.

21:00They were like, I wanna learn to do this better. I wanna embody this a little bit better. And everybody does it to the extent that they have the bandwidth to do it. Because it's still a job and you're still getting paid to do X, Y, Z. So if someone's asking for now X, Y, Z plus the rest of the alphabet, then you're now asking beyond what my job requires. And that's gonna take more than the money to do it. It's gonna take some passion to help me feel invested in it. And if the money and passion aren't there, then why? Then why am I gonna do it? I had to be checked recently because there was a server in the well and I forget what they asked, but it was something that like annoyed me or they did something that like had me perturbed. And I got real grumpy about it. And I turned to the other bartender and said something and bartender was like, yeah, you know, but like he's got like a family with kids and this is his second job.

22:01Like that's why he doesn't know. And I'm like, well, you know, as much as I do want like the serving staff to know everything and you know, blah, blah, blah, I do have to recognize that people are where they are. And that for especially a lot of the servers that this is like a second job and not their passion the same way that it is for us. And so you're right, like nerding out or like us professing our interest in this like can help carry them to a place where at least they feel comfortable. But we also have to make sure that we, you know, make space for them. Making space while simultaneously holding them accountable. Holding ourselves accountable too. I mean, that's, I think a basic platform that I like to embody in life. And because I'm a bartender, it's my motto for bartending as well. But a basic platitude that I operate under is that that idea that you can't have justice without a healthy proportion of both love and accountability. So there has to be mercy in the mix.

23:02There has to be accountability in the mix. And you kind of have to know when to pull your punches. Know when to read the situation and to like recognize a person where they're at. I mean, we've had, we had an employee not too long ago and we won't name names, but they were going through a lot. And actually a couple of times we've had teammates that were going through a lot. So this isn't just a one instance type of thing. So if you think I'm talking about you, I'm not. But there's a couple of times when we've had teammates that were struggling, like spiraling. And we tried to meet them where they were at multiple times over. We showed them grace and empathy when we could. And we gave them training and tools to help them get through it. And then there's a certain point where I'm no longer helping you. I'm just enabling you because I'm closing my eyes to the garbage. And so it always takes longer than we want it to. We always have to be more patient, like at least a month longer than we actually wanted.

24:04I'm done with this person already. I was done with this person two months ago. But I waited because I needed to do my due diligence to make sure, okay, if this person has a drinking problem, how am I able to be available as a teammate and how am I available as a coworker to give them resources to get themselves out, to see their value beyond drinking, to see their value in other ways. And doing that in very practical ways. Not always like a big sit down and tears, but sometimes just like, hey man, you've got to double strain your drink. That kind of thing of like, hey, I need you to do the garnish this way. Or hey, I need you to be faster at this. And holding them accountable consistently, but still giving them the chance to prove themselves. And then at the end of all of that journey, they get what they get out of it. And then if it's still not happening, then you have to say, okay, I love you, but this isn't right for you and I'm only enabling you. I like to think, or at least I hope, that for some of these instances where we have seen where something didn't work out for somebody, where like they couldn't, either couldn't continue employment or something had to like drastically change for them.

25:19I like to think and I deeply hope that they didn't leave having not gotten something out of that experience. And again, the beauty of how you run bars and how you center people and I hear these words and they're more than words, love, patience, mercy, humility. I like to think that they've walked away with like caring a lot with them, like taking a lot away from this experience. And I think they have. I think so too. I believe it. I believe it. I have, yeah. The past few years, since having started working in your program, I've worked, we've only really, we've worked together a few times, I guess, but I keep coming back to your programs because of this sort of thing, because there's so much support, because there's support for learning and becoming a better bartender, but there's also support for exploring, exploring all the, having room for a life to explore everything I want to explore.

26:34Bartending is, it reminds me of a Brandon Mulligan quote that I'm sure I will mess up. And for all the people out there who aren't nerdy enough to know who Brandon Mulligan is. Look up Brandon Lee Mulligan, you guys. If you want to be that much more of a nerd, look up Brandon Lee Mulligan. But he talks about it at one point, somebody talking about how a barista shouldn't make as much money as they should make or something like that, or like why should a barista be paid a living wage? And he says something to the effect of like, do you think coffee should exist? Do you think a coffee house should exist? Well, then that person deserves the dignity of their job. And even goes on to say like, what the fuck do you do that's so important? Because like pouring coffee for somebody can be important and influential. And pouring drinks for people can be something that's, you know, joy giving. I know I've heard you say that on this podcast before. It is giving joy. I think Robert brought that up as well.

27:34Like this is more than just putting something in there, more than just looking cool, you know. And I love that aspect of bartending too. Like it's fun, but there's so much more to this. And it can be whatever, you know, you really want it to be. It's something that I treasure. Like I have been more or less getting deeper into the back end of bartending at this point, because I've been more into the like program development and not on the front lines of the program development, but more on like the back end of like, okay, let me fix the numbers. Let me work with teams. The training part is always super special to me, but I've had less guest interaction. And so I've not been able to have a lot of those experiences that I kind of treasure as like those little moments with a guest, whether it's a jerk or a lovely person that's coming to sit with you, either way I love those situations of flipping the dynamic.

28:35And there's something super rewarding when someone comes and sits with you and you're like, they're ready to have a bad time. And they can't, I won't let them. Like within the first five minutes, something's gonna switch and they're not going to be having a bad time anymore. Well, I say that, but I've seen you make sure that somebody who was ready to have a bad time didn't get to stick around and- That too, that too. Yeah, I've got to at least tell one of these stories. Go for it. You were, who knows how many hours, how many days you had worked in a row to the point where you had no voice. Oh, this one. Yeah, a group came in with somebody who was way too inebriated and they were just being outrageous. And I knew you were going to kick them out and I watched you start to go over there and I was like, hey, I, you know, your voice is out. Like I'm willing to just tell these people to leave. And they're like, no, I got this.

29:35And so I watched you escort somebody out with like no voice, I couldn't believe it. It was ridiculous. It was, yeah, it was a moment. Like there's some moments that like when, cause I, you had just come into the shift. That's what it was. This person came in, they were messed up midday and they were mistreating. He was honestly kind of mistreating his sister. She was clearly on some kind of pills and they were getting her drunk. And so he just kind of shoved her into an Uber and came back upstairs. And I said, and because I could tell that I was needing to kick them out anyway, I was just looking for opportunities to hold them accountable. So I was like, sir, I need to hang on to your, to your debit card or your license or something while you head out to an Uber. Like clearly you could hop in that Uber and leave without paying. So I was like, I just need to hang on to something. And he was just so rude. He came back and he goes, I'll be right back. And for those who can't see my face, I moved my neck around a lot.

30:39He was like fully channeling like a Valley girl, like I'll be right back. It was like, no, sir, you won't. So when he came back upstairs. Fairness, you said, no sir, you won't. No, you won't. You guys, I was working a hundred hours a week easily. I was clocking in a hundred hours a week and my voice just disappeared. It fully went away. Honestly, it wasn't even a whisper. I remember like not being even able to get a whisper out. It was wild. I was having to write down my thoughts to people. But yeah, when he had said that, I was like, no, I'm telling him he needs to go. And you would just come on to the night shift. So I was like, no, I should deal with him because I was the last face that just talked to him. So I need to close this deal. And so I was like, no, you have to go. You have to go. He was like, are you serious right now? I was like, yes, yes, you have to go. But it was worth it. It was, that was a good moment. Yeah, that one will be edged in there. And anytime I feel awkward about having to tell somebody they have to leave, I recall that.

31:44Well, at least I don't have to whisper shout at somebody. They can hear me at least. Yeah, if somebody's got to go, they got to go. It doesn't really matter. But yeah, that was a rough one. They were just jerks. But yeah, there's lots of moments like that. But I think they were determined to have their own good time. But there's times when people come in just grumpy and I don't know what they're dealing with. Yeah, and you have all the tools to help somebody get past that, it's really nice. Yeah, I never know. Maybe they're coming in and I've gone into restaurants before with major events having just happened and been there sitting and people are aware or not aware of what's going on. And often you will go into a bar, sit by yourself in some of those situations. And we had that one lady too that came into Oak Steakhouse that was, I don't know if you remember that older woman, she was sitting in seat one. I just treasure that moment. She's just, I don't know why, but she's this shining star, this example of a type of human that I cherish.

32:53Someone who is an older woman who's gone out to eat by herself. I don't know her story. And she's just living her life and she's just existing in this world. And that's something that's just cool to me. I'm like, good, do it. And something happened. I think her order came out late or something was wrong. I don't know if you remember. I think so, I think so. Something was just like off. And so we gifted her an appetizer and then she got her food as well. And the whole time she had been kind of quiet with us. Do you remember that? Yeah, well, so the story I thought you were gonna tell was actually a different story that- Oh really? Yeah, so you'll have to remind me on the details of this. So this one is, this is when this lady was sitting in bar seat one. She was kind of quiet the whole time. And I think both you and I were reading the situation to be like, is she having a good time or not? So you sent her out an appetizer. And I think we didn't, maybe didn't have, or were out of the entree that she originally had picked or something. And so both you and I were very busy at the moment.

33:55We were sharing the well. And I think it was just me and you, no bar back. And so both you and I were kind of running up and down the bar and taking care of business. And sometimes, and if you're a bartender, you know this, there are times when you are so busy that you're in the flow of things. You're making drinks as fast as you can. And you've got a guest in front of you that's watching and waiting for service. And you know that you need to get to them. So you time it as best you can. And then as soon as you get that moment to like not even fully stop what you're doing, you're not stopping making drinks. You just have a moment to share some of your brain bandwidth to say, is everything great? Are you doing great over here? And she wasn't even drinking cocktails, I don't think. I think she was just hanging out and drinking like club soda or water. And we just occasionally would talk to her as we could throughout the whole thing. But she was very quiet the whole time. Very, very quiet. And usually that's an indication. Something's up, maybe they're not happy. Yeah, so what happened?

34:55So towards the end of the meal, she's paid up. And she tells us, she goes, you guys are great bartenders. And it just felt so good. She was like, you guys really did great. You're great bartenders. And I remember I was like smiling the whole rest of the day because it's just like she appreciated what we were doing. She was quiet and so she was to herself, but she liked us. She liked what we were doing. She appreciated that we were working together. She saw like both the laughs and the joy and yet still the urgency of like getting drinks out. It's nice to have somebody recognize what you do and how you do it and the professionalism that can be brought to, I mean, any job for sure. But to this job in particular, I thought you were gonna tell the story about the, we had a couple of folks who came in on New Year's Eve whose flight had been canceled and who missed a show. And then they tried to go to a different bar that was closed for the evening.

35:56And they, oh, that's right. They had bought tickets to a party and the tickets ended up to be fake or something like that. Like they bought them online, it was fake. And so they sit down at our bar having had misadventures. All New Year's Eve. Welcome to Tennessee, everything went wrong. And so it was really nice to, because I think they were even gonna leave before midnight and it was like, no, stay till midnight. Like, let us take care of you and let us show you something of like Tennessee hospitality. I swear it's not like that. And so it was really cool to see this change from, having the worst impression of Nashville, the worst impression of Tennessee in general, because I think they had gone to Chattanooga originally. Oh, wow. And to be able to turn that around really, really felt good. And they loved you. Those are those moments that we really get to, really get to do some awesome stuff. I almost like those situations more than the guests that comes in. Yeah, because when you turn that situation around, it's just so wonderful.

37:01Like when we talk about joy giving, that gives me joy too. Like that's a little bit of like an energy boost. And we have to find those where you can, because there's a lot of days where it is just mopping floors, throwing out the garbage, arguing about where glass should go. Like that's sometimes the monotony of the job and also kind of like the, it doesn't feel fruitful. But really, if you don't know how to mop a floor, you don't know how to bartend. Absolutely, absolutely. And that's a big one. If you can't, literally if you can't mop, that's a specific one I know we've brought up before in our discussions. Like if you cannot mop, why would I give you access to anything else? Like mopping really is, you know, it's like the Kung Fu movies where it's like slap the water, you know, or wax on, wax off. Exactly, exactly, wax on, wax off. Like if you really do need to practice this thing until you completely get it before you move to the next step.

38:03And that's another thing I really like about our programs are, you know, we've uplifted bar backs before. And I think that's a, you know, definitely a great reservoir of talent and good people. It's a great way to see if somebody's going to be able to handle being a bartender. If they can be a bar back, if they can not just be a bar back for a little bit of time hoping to become a bartender, but really be a good bar back. I love seeing that transition. You are one of the best at training up bar backs. You really are. Cause like there's times when I'll send bar backs to you to get trained. And I think the reason for that, I think there's a couple of reasons for that, but for one with bar backs and just with bartenders in general, you need to understand that there is basically two sides to the bar. There's the show that's happening for everyone to see, for the guests to see. And then there's the internal needs of glassware, product running out.

39:04And if you're not keeping both of those entities in full order, the show will be diminished. The show will look bad. And a lot of people want to get into bartending because they're like, wow, the show looks great. This looks like so much fun. I want to be a bartender. I want to be a showman. And they completely dismiss the interior of the bar. They dismiss the heart of the job, which is polishing glasses, which is making sure you have enough ice for the shift and that you don't run out of product. And you're going to be a crappy bartender. You just are. If you can't get those interior things right. Because a guest from the outside, when they see you like looking around like a chicken with your head cut off because you don't know where to find a product, that they don't think, oh, it's because they didn't, they don't know that, oh, someone didn't batch something today, they just think you're a bad bartender. You know, if I think something that really helps with bar back or I think something that makes a good bar back that eventually makes a good bartender, bar backs that you can kind of see it sometimes when they look at bartending and they're like, oh man, that'll be more money and less work.

40:15And that's not less work for sure. Yeah, it's all the bar back stuff plus now you have more responsibilities and you have to do it while looking like you're calm and collected. Yeah, if you're a bartender, you're also a bar back. Absolutely. And I have met bartenders that don't want to do any of the bar back work and I'm not super pleased with that either. You're not going to last. You're not going to last. Absolutely. There's some bars that, so like, for example, when I went to employees only in New York, my bartender there was named Keith and I'm forgetting his last name right now, but he was an incredible bartender and I was, and he was giving me all these different things to try, like different syrups, different things. And there was a couple of things that I was asking about and he was like, well, actually our bar back does that syrup and he was like, I really don't make those syrups anymore. And it's both a cool thing, like cool, maybe that's what they need for employees only because every place is different. Maybe they have it so that it could be, I think maybe it could be cool that the bar backs have such a hand in things and like it.

41:17Their role is so prominent. But it could also be like, probably the bartender should know how to make that syrup. You should probably know how to make that syrup. Yeah, and so like, I don't diss that. Like maybe that's, you know, and I also don't know the situation. Maybe he's a part-time bartender, could be a million different things. So I love employees only and I don't want to trash employees only. It's truly one of the coolest bars in the United States of America. But yeah, it's something that I like to keep in context for like what my expectations are. Because like we said before, if we set the bar up high for any bartender, they are gonna care about the job just right under where you set the bar. So if I care, let's say, and because you guys can't see me, I'm holding my hand up high to the ceiling. Give it a 10. You're at a 10. I'm at a 10. You care at a 10. I care at a 10. Whatever I care at, the other people that work with me are gonna care two degrees less than me. So they're gonna be right at an eight. And a bar back, because of what they're bringing in, bringing to the table, they're probably gonna care closer to like four degrees under that.

42:24And it goes back to the idea of like the leader of the bar team owes more to the bar team than the bar team owes back. And so when you're asking a bar back to do all of this ground work, all of this difficult not fun work that doesn't really get the recognition that the bartender is gonna get, what can we as leaders give back to the bar back? And how can we give more to them than we're asking them to give back to us? And at least for me, I think a huge part of it is, one, communicating where they're going, why they're doing this, why this is important, why I need you to mop correctly, and why I appreciate your mopping correctly. And then two, really respecting the work that they do, not just saying, hey, thanks for doing that, but really saying and really letting them know that the reason that it's so important to me that you do this small thing correctly is because you are pivotal in how this bar operates and I want you to know it and I want you to hear it from me consistently and I want you to see me doing that same work with you.

43:31Absolutely. But you're not above it. Exactly, exactly. The bartender is not above the bar back, is not above bar back work. You are directing them, you are effectively their boss, but the reality is that work is pivotal. Yeah, it's absolutely vital. Yeah, there's, is it MLK with like, there's dignity and work? I think that's a Martin Luther King Jr. quote. Think so, anyways. It's a great quote. Whoever said it was wonderful. I need a fact checker. But it's a, you know, dignity and work is like a huge, huge thing. Like it doesn't matter what your job is, there's dignity in that and respecting that as a bartender to your bar back is gonna make life happier, easier, better for everybody involved. Yeah. And that's that aspect of centering, centering the workers, centering the people above just making cool cocktail. Exactly.

44:32Well, and like when we've, in Jennifer's episode that is coming out today actually, we're recording this Wednesday, her and I talk about the idea that you are not, your value does not come from production. And I say this a lot and I don't know if there's like, if it's super clear when I say it, but I often say that your value does not come from your work, your work's value comes from you. I love that. And that, the idea there is that the work is not a sign of my value. The production is not a sign of my value. I'm valuable, period. And that's a hard thing for me personally to embody. You've known me for a long time, you know some of my challenges and part of the reason why bartending, I truly feel like saved my life. But my value is just that. It is my value, it is not, I am not, my meaning and my value do not come from my output of cocktails or my output in production. However, understanding that will actually make a better product and make the world that you work in more beautiful and more precious because this is your sphere of influence.

45:44So what I often see is that when bartenders and individuals feel their worth and feel their value and see the kind of beauty that they can bring to the table, all of a sudden their output and what they do is now this like glowing, shining embodiment of them. It's just so cool to see, it reflects you. You are not a reflection of your work, your work is a reflection of you. And that's just, I don't know, I think that's how I have to operate. You know, I love hearing you bring up a sphere of influence. It's something I think about a lot and I think in our relationship, in the time that I've known you, that has been such a huge perspective change for me that's been super helpful. I think a lot of people in the industry came to the industry by accident or came to the industry in a circuitous route, but we weren't aiming, we landed here.

46:46And so in a world that oftentimes is telling us to define ourselves by our job or by your income or whatever, you know, the service industry can sometimes be hard to wrap your head around like your own value when you're oftentimes being told that you're less than. And so when I think about consistently, and this is a product of having been your friend and having been working for you so long about my sphere of influence and how what I do is important and who I am is important, I am gonna get a little choked up. It's okay, bring it on. Because it does mean a lot because it can be really difficult. And so understanding that there is good that I can do by being behind the bar is, I don't know. It means a lot to me. And I just wanna say thank you for giving that to me. I love you so much. I love you too. I have found additional value in being able to see the connections I have with others.

47:52And yeah, all I wanna bring to this world is that people know how special they are. And a lot of bartenders don't know that. And I know a lot of people don't feel that in a lot of different parts of the industry. But again, this is the place I've landed. And this is the place that I have a chance to make differences in the world. And it means a lot to me that it means a lot to you. Because yeah, we all could just be sitting here making money and it's a lot of fun. It is a fun job, but it's also very hard. And there's lots of days that are kind of thankless. And I used to see my tip as like a grade on how I did. Like, did I get it? And if I didn't get over 20%, then I might as well have got a C or a D. Like I wanted an A plus plus plus every single time. And it wasn't necessarily about gathering money because I'm not great at saving money. I don't care about it. It's really bad.

48:52It's really a problem. It's a thing I both love and admire. And I am very concerned by how little you value money, which is like both awesome, but also. I value everybody else's money. Yeah, that's true, that's true. You do make sure that your bar teams make money for sure. Yeah. Hey, this is Brandon again. I'm gonna take control of the show for just a minute or two and tell you about a couple of sponsors. One, Justice Industries, who we talked about earlier with Just.Glass. Visit them at justiceindustries.org, where you can have your glass recycled. So they're doing amazing things, but you know who else is doing amazing things is the compost company. So the compost company is similar to what Just.Glass is doing, but they're picking up all of your food waste. The number one cause of greenhouse gas emissions coming from landfills is food waste getting trapped underneath all that plastic and it can't escape.

49:54And so it causes methane. And the cool thing about what they do is they take your food waste, they take it to their farm out in Kingston Springs, and they turn it into organic soil. So this food waste that you're throwing in the trash can now gets taken to Kingston Springs, gets turned into fresh organic soil, then you can buy it yourself. You can go to Whole Foods and buy their soil, or they sell it to local landscapers and local farmers. So literally if you're working a restaurant and they buy from local farmers and you guys use the compost company, it is a full circle of your food. It is the food you're serving is grown in the food that you're throwing away, and that is really, really cool. I implore you, go call Jeffrey Ezell right now. Him and his brother Clay are doing amazing things. Let me give you his number. It is 615-866-8152. This guy will get you set up. They will come in, they'll give you these, a brand new trash can to put your compost in.

50:54They'll come pick it up once or twice a week or whatever you need. But this is your turn. As a restaurant owner, we have a responsibility to our earth and to our staff to ensure that they wanna work at a place that cares about the environment. So the compost company and what they're doing over there is amazing. Last people we wanna talk about is super source. Dish machine and chemicals. If you're a bartender out there, you either have a three compartment sink or you have a dish machine. And if that dish machine is slow or it's lagging or it's violent and breaking your glassware, if it's leaving spots, if it's that soapy residue on there, you need to get a hold of Jason Ellis because this guy will come in and he will ensure every single week that that is working 100% proper. So if you have a manager or somebody that you can talk to and say, hey, look, I want a dishwasher. This guy's giving three months of a dishwasher for absolutely free. And here's the best thing is that he's not going to make you sign a contract. So if you go to your manager and say, hey, look, I really wanna put a dish machine in and they say it's too expensive. Well, it's gonna be free for three months.

51:55Well, I'm not signing a three year contract. We already used somebody else. You don't have to sign a contract. He'll come put it in and you can leave it next week if you don't want. But Jason Ellis really understands service and he really understands what you're going through on a daily basis. That is why he's absolutely crushing it out there. You need to give him a call, 770-337-1143. That is Jason Ellis with SuperSource. But yeah, so it's never been about bringing home big bucks. It was just about did this guest appreciate and see and feel loved? And did they give me a grade that was like thumbs up or was it just like, yeah, you're fine. And sometimes people will give you the verbal tip. Of like, that's the best old fashioned I ever had. Sure, sure, because I totally came up with the old fashioned. That's what I say every time. When someone's like, that's the best old fashioned I've ever had, I'm always like, well, it's not my recipe. It's the oldest recipe in the books. That one's been around for a little bit.

52:56But yeah, those are the moments where it's like, I had to flip my understanding is that my value again does not come from my production. It doesn't come from other people. It doesn't come from, and if you're a bartender and you're slinging drinks on Broadway, or if you're a bartender and you're making craft cocktails and at the Audrey, which is an awesome bar, either way, you have to at some point acknowledge that like you're bringing drinks, passing them out to others, and there's an honorable way to do all of it. Honorable for sure. I have to give a quick shout out to all of like the Broadway hardcore drink slinging bartenders. I think, you know, when I first came into craft cocktail bartending, I probably had my nose up in the air and thought that like that was the epitome of bartending. And I fully recognize now that like, I cannot as a craft cocktail bartender, I don't know, I could not do what they do on Broadway. First of all, I think you could.

53:57Well, maybe, but I think if you could easily take somebody from Broadway and make them a craft cocktail bartender, you cannot take a craft cocktail bartender and easily put them in the other direction. I 100%. What they do down there is like intense. Preston Denny, it's funny, every bartender that I talk to that's into craft cocktailing, everyone says the same thing. And I think that there's this misnomer out there that mixologists are, you know, these mustachioed, curly mustachioed, suspendered wearing pricks. They often are. They often are. But there's this idea that that's the epinomenous, that's the word I'm looking for. Oh my goodness. That's a big one. It doesn't matter. They embody, they stand for what mixologists do. And that's who we picture. We picture that individual as what is a bartender who is a mixologist. However, every person who does mixology that I know is like, you know who the real badasses are?

55:02Yeah, exactly. It's the bartenders on Broadway. It's the bartenders who are slinging drinks. Now I think that the grass is always greener. Like we always miss what we don't have. But I truly know, not think, I know that you would kill it on Broadway. I know you'd be a great bartender. I've seen you, we've dealt with huge crowds before and waves of waves of people where it just doesn't stop. Not only would you be perfectly content as a bartender on Broadway, but you would find a lot of success, I think, because you are straight up the person who's like, if someone allowed you, Brandon, to be like, hey, just get orders, make drinks, kick it out and get it done. You would be like, do you have an order? Got you, okay, what do you want, what do you want? You would get those drinks out so fast. And I think you would just be like, you would be on a month long high if you were to bartend on Broadway. But you would wear yourself out. Yeah, probably, probably a little bit. On Robert's episode, I think it was, it could have been Preston's, I said there was someone, a friend, who told me that I was too old to develop a coke habit.

56:12Brandon was that friend. Brandon, you are the one who told me I'm too old to develop a coke habit. So I'll tell that back to you. You can't bartend on Broadway, you're too old. I'm too old to get a coke habit, I heard that. And not that I think every bartender on Broadway is doing coke. But it probably does help. But it probably helps, I'm not gonna lie. You know, something I kind of wrote down here because I wanted to circle around to, on making good, on making good bar teams and on how to help make good bar teams and like advice that could be given to bartenders that are maybe starting, maybe even bartenders who have been around for a while. But two things, one, like with regards to tipping, and you know, wanting to see like your, I think you were starting to say this, like seeing your tip as a reflection, but understanding at some point that like the tip is not the reflection of your work. And also recognizing, and this is a hard one, but that your guest doesn't always know how to tip. And that sometimes that's just, you've just gotta be who's out with that.

57:15You've just gotta learn to be okay with that and to understand that like it comes out in the wash. And I know that like managers say that a lot. Like I've heard every manager ever say like, you have to, and it can be frustrating to hear it from a manager. But when I've heard it from you, or when I've heard it from like bartenders that I respect, it helps me realize that like, that it's not a reflection. And that sometimes I have somebody who doesn't come to the city very often, you know, and they may not sit at like a bar that's, you know, they're used to being at their hometown bar where it's like a dollar a beer, you know. And that's okay. And that I still love and respect that guest. And like they still love and respect me. And it's important to just like understand that basically don't count your tips all shift. I see people sometimes do that where they're like looking at every tip before they go. Yeah, and it's like, just hold off till the end, put your tips in at the end. You're gonna make your money. Like just understand that like, if you start to get in that mindset, then all of a sudden you can be, you could be a jerk to your bar guys sometimes.

58:17It changes how you bartend. And if you're changing how you bartend per guest, that is a reflection of you as a bartender. Absolutely. That is not a reflection of the guests or what they deserve or don't deserve. That's a reflection of your skillset as a bartender. I see, so we've got Brandon still in an office in studio and he's hanging out working in the background. So I won't pull him on, but he fully applauded that. Yeah. So that's a big one. I think waiting to really like count your tips and you know, until the end of your shift is hugely, I think has for at least for me been super, super helpful to like just ignore what my tips are through the shift. And then the other thing I definitely wanna talk about is like respecting your kitchen. If you are not going out of your way to respect your kitchen, especially when you're in their space, then you are doing yourself and wherever you work and your kitchen stuff like a great disservice. And I think that it's important to think of the bar as we have at least as much in the kitchen, you know, one foot in the kitchen, one foot in the front of the house.

59:27Completely agree. And we need to understand that like we are as much kitchen workers as we are servers or in front of the house staff. I think that we are the intersection between the two, between back of house and front of house. And when a couple episodes ago, we talked about the inequality of money, the financial distribution and the way that guests have an experience in house is as much the kitchen's job as it is the people who are in front of house, if not more so. So you can interchange your servers. You can't interchange the kitchen, you can't. You can't have the steak prepared the same way, but you can have different people bring it to the table. That's not to, you know, knock any server. That's not to say that you can't provide a type of service at your table side that is unlike any other persons in Nashville. That doesn't mean that you're not offering an incredible experience or cultivating this experience. No one else could offer that.

01:00:28All I'm saying is that there is a skill set to that person in the kitchen that is honorable, wonderful, precious, artful, craft oriented. And if you're a bartender, then you can do small things to make sure that we are communicating clearly to the kitchen, that you are setting expectations, that you are recognizing their value and their worth. You are gonna be in their space. You are making syrups in their space sometimes. And even if you're making stuff at the bar, you're still utilizing things from the kitchen or sharing orders with the kitchen. And there's places where you can be truly dishonorable, truly disrespectful. And that's again, a reflection of you. And if you show your kitchen team the respect that they're due and that they've earned through all of their hard work and the fact that, I mean, there's a reason they're called heart of the house. They don't show up, we don't do this. If you show your kitchen staff that respect, if you, I mean, and it's even the small things like behind on your left, may I use this space?

01:01:37Chef, may I call? Chef, may I call? Like all of those little things, like when they stack, I mean, I think one of the things I love about working at Oak is we have such a great relationship with our kitchen staff that it's awesome. I mean, it makes them happy, it makes us happy. And it feels like a more cohesive, respectful team. Yeah, going out of your way to make sure that, especially when you're in their space, because it's the same way when somebody comes behind my bar that doesn't belong behind my bar. I have high expectations of how they're going to navigate, communicate, and things like that. Make sure that they don't get a concussion walking up behind me. Yeah, exactly, I'm swinging, I'm swinging bottles. You know, if you're not like letting me know where you are, you could get clocked. And in the kitchen, how much more so, you know, like they're swinging things around, it's hot. Sharp knives, fire. Exactly, there's a lot of hazards back there. And so showing them that you understand and respect what they're doing just by communicating where you are in space and making sure you're not just grabbing tools, using things that aren't yours.

01:02:41And not cleaning them, not putting them back where they belong. Absolutely. I think one of my favorite ways that we take care of our kitchen occasionally is like there are days when, like Mother's Day or Easter, those are days that are grueling for the kitchen. I love that we will often make after shift shots. And a lot of our kitchen members, especially at that particular time, don't drink. And so we're making zero proof shots. So we made like a ginger coffee, lemon combo that was super refreshing, but also a slightly energizing shot. And we made it as a drink for the entire team, for everyone in the kitchen, which I think that day was like probably close to 14 people. And it's a specialty drink. For us, it's no big deal. Like I can throw that together, but it's still something special and fun and just helps them feel seen. And that's one thing we can do as a bar. That's one thing that we have the ability to make a move on.

01:03:43And just kind of noticing those little places where you can change somebody's day. And if we were a place that was allowing drinks, like allowing alcohol, maybe you buy a round for your bar team. Maybe you buy a pack of beer for your bar team to take home with them. Kitchen team, you mean? Yeah, yeah, sorry. Kitchen team. You know, I've seen you in a position where you no longer take tips because your salary. And so I have seen you like earn tips and give it to the bar team. But I've also seen the bar team having like got basically just to fill in the listeners. Kayla at times will come in and fill in if somebody can't be there or something happens, but she's not allowed to take, you're not allowed to take tips. And so those tips usually just go in the tip pool. But I've seen the bar team before receive all this extra income from Kayla's work and then give it to the kitchen. Like it's happened a few times and I think that's always good.

01:04:45And by the time it gets split between all the guys in the kitchen, it's probably not that much money, but it's good for the kitchen to see that like they're valued in that way. It's just recognizing others. Recognizing their work, recognizing who they are. It doesn't take a lot, but I think again, kind of like that buck stops here mentality. Sometimes that's missing with servers. If you work in a place where that's missing, call it out. I mean, I hate to say this, but we have a responsibility to take care of each other. We're in a community. These are your people for better or worse. These are the people who you're gonna be in the trenches with. And you may not like everybody you're in the trenches with, but these are the people. So if you see somebody in your team that is not honoring or taking care of the kitchen, call it out. Be like, hey man, they work hard. Yeah. Like I know that you may see this as less than, but it is not. Oh no. I mean, all their attention to detail in a hundred degrees. In a hundred degrees, exactly.

01:05:46Over a fire pit, sweating. And I used to work in the kitchen too. I worked for Cracker Barrel in the kitchen. And it was honestly one of the hardest jobs I've ever done in my life. It was very hot all the time. And the output that Cracker Barrel sees is insane. I don't care how great your bar is or how great your restaurant is. But that dining room, your dining room is huge. And you get three of them. You get three dining rooms and people will wait for three to four hours for a table at Cracker Barrel on a Sunday. And it's insane. So every Saturday morning and Sunday morning, I worked at Cracker Barrel. I'd be there at 6 a.m., usually still hung over from the night before or still drunk from the night before. And I would make myself an eggs in basket with Tabasco and have a five hour energy drink. And I would try to keep up with the Hispanic team on grill one. And they were monsters. They would just like whip out every, it was insane. Like the types of breakfasts that you can imagine at Cracker Barrel, it's like so many pieces and elements.

01:06:50Yeah, that's not, that's not. The French toast, the pancakes. It comes like it comes. That's like you can make your own breakfast. It's insane. And every egg set, and I would often work egg grill. And egg grill was so hard because that grill is much, much, much, much, much hotter than the regular grill. And you're making an omelet next to two country style eggs, next to two sunny up eggs, next to two over easy eggs. And it's all happening on the same grill. And if you break a yolk, you got to start over. I was, it was so hard. It was such a hard job. And they would just be over there like monsters, just killing it. And I'm like, this is insane. The talent and the skillset to do what they're doing. And that's why I was always on grill two because I was never going to be as fast as them. And so grill two is the white team. And we were always the B team. We were the B team. And we like, we, you still get just as many tickets, but grill one is just putting it out way faster. And so, yeah, that was a whole experience. And I would work Friday, sometimes Friday nights on fish fry and the fry, you're just sweating.

01:07:55Your clothes are soaked in grease. You can, and you have to wear this dumb uniform. So your clothes are heavy with grease. Like if you were to wash your clothes, you'd break your washing machine. Like it's so nasty. And this is a life. This is a lifestyle for a lot of people and they don't want to be in front of house. That's not their, that's not their skillset. They don't want to talk to people. But what they're doing is a really beautiful skill. It's important and you don't get your food without it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I love that we transitioned to talking about the kitchen so much because I didn't expect us to, but I love that that's just something that's both, that's valuable to both of us. Yeah, I have mad respect for the kitchen. I mean, I've done kitchen work before, although at this point, like at one point that was most of what I had done early on in my restaurant career. But that's now so far removed and I've now been in restaurants for 20 years, now more than 20 years, holy cow. You're old. Yeah, I know. I always say like, they're going to have to put me out the pasture, like where do the old bartenders go?

01:09:00I don't want to find out. I haven't seen enough of them to know that it turns out okay. Yeah, sure. But yeah, you know, so now it's been so long since I've really worked in the kitchen, but you're right. Like that is, it's hugely important. And I've seen enough people who really take it seriously and who really love it to just know that, yeah, they're as passionate and working, I mean, like wildly, you know, hard at what they're doing. And actually, another cool thing about being cool with your kitchen, like a shout out to Obed from back in the day. Oh, I miss Obed. Yeah. So a chef that we've worked with before who, you know, when he had his time to like really, really head up the kitchen, we got to do pairings. We got to have like a symbiotic relationship where product that would otherwise be wasted either from the kitchen was sent to the bar or from the bar sent to the kitchen. Yeah. And I remember doing like a GFS presentation, Gordon Food Services presentation where Obed and I talked about that.

01:10:05And there were restaurant owners who came up to us and were like, wait, so how do y'all communicate? Like, I remember somebody literally asking, I said, you know, when we are done using juice, so we only keep our juice for, you know, two shifts. Instead of throwing it out, like there are things in the kitchen that they could use that for. And so I was like, I just give my leftover juice to the kitchen and the kitchen gives, and they were like, well, how do you give your juice to the kitchen? Like, what do you mean? Like, how do I give it to you? I'm like, I just. I talk to them and then I say, here you go. Here's your juice, you know? But it was like eye-opening to realize that there's like such a front of the house, back of the house divide that I think the bar is in a unique position to bridge. And that doesn't happen everywhere, but it should happen everywhere. Your kitchen team and your bar team should be friends. They should be tight. Absolutely. I feel like we're pretty tight with our kitchen. I think so too, yeah. I mean, Scott is an amazing chef.

01:11:05Absolutely. He does a killer job. He's bringing in, he's slightly newer to our team, but honestly fits right in. I've never. I think the team really seems to like him. I don't want to speak for everybody, but I get the impression that the kitchen really likes him. Yeah, they're down for him. And that's important to have that kind of support because they feel supported by him. Sam is awesome. We work with Sam a lot. She's always bringing cool stuff to us of like, hey, I made this like pistachio. Oh yeah. You know, if I can do a shout out, and like, again, I don't want to speak for people that aren't here. So Sam, I'm blowing up to something that you've told me, but she's listening. But Sam told me, you know, that she was just like feeling, you know, like she wasn't getting to do everything that she wanted to do. And chef Scott came to her and was like, you know, what can I do to make you happier here? Like, cause it looks like you're just not getting like the full enjoyment out of this. And she just said, I want to be more creative.

01:12:06So they're now doing a weekly trip to the farmer's market to just like find fun ingredients. I love it. And like we've already seen on our menu, like an introduction of new things that they picked up that week. And I love that. And so in hearing that, that's like the perfect thing of like, what can the person in charge do to further support their team, to give more to their team than they're expecting their team to give back. Exactly. And so I like want to look for those things behind our bar. Like how, as lead bartender, can I find like what somebody needs and give them that. It's hard. It's really hard. What makes it hard is that every shift you have to work. There's always a point in the day when you're open. And so all the fun, creative things that you're working on or plotting or planning, you're open at five. They better be done by five o'clock because if you're not done, there's a good chance you're not going to be able to come back to that during the shift.

01:13:06And so because there's always that stipulation and you want to use your hours well, it's hard to get creative and have fun when there's sometimes a time limit on it. And so the very, very busy days, you may not get that chance. But right now we're in that season right before when school starts where we're not quite as crazy as we were the last couple of months. So it's days like this where it's like, hey, I know you were working on this thing and it's a little bit scary or challenging. Let's mess up a couple of recipes. Let's make a couple of bad batches and see what happens for fun. And if that happens, you make a couple cocktails that aren't that great. You make a couple of things that aren't awesome. You get to learn a few things about what you're looking for and how to play with your tools and how to play with the resources available to you. And it should be okay to make those mistakes. And you got to do it when you have a day like this, like what's happening right now and right before school opens. Or you can always play the fun game that we play on cocktail development.

01:14:09Let's talk about this. Let's share what is this cocktail game we play sometimes. So when I was learning how to make cocktails and Kayla was teaching me, like one of the things that we would do when it was past just the basics, when it was really about developing or playing around with products that maybe I wasn't super comfortable with yet. And now we continue to do this game to give extreme limitations to how to make a cocktail. So I think maybe the last time we did this, it was like a three ingredient cocktail that has to include lime in some capacity. And I forget what the other, but you give super specific parameters. You can only touch three products. One has to be, you can't use whiskey. You can't use gin and you can't use rum. So you have to use something else and you have to- We did one that was like a holiday cocktail that has to include egg white. That was like one that we did. We did, yeah, I think one of my favorites was the three ingredient cocktails stirred and has to include lime.

01:15:10Yeah, that's right. That's what it was. Yeah, because those parameters all of a sudden become, okay, well, yeah, that is pretty limiting. Stirred with lime and three ingredients. Yeah, and there's a million different things you can do with that though. I ended up using lime zest instead of lime juice. So like stirred, I think it was basically turned into a two ingredient or I don't remember if you let me use lime as a garnish and count it against my three. We didn't count it. We didn't count it, yeah. Maybe that's it. It was just lime on the nose, but yeah, those sorts of things are super fun to play around with and then it also like leads to other things. So I think on our dessert menu, the bittersweet and blanc. That's where that came from. Yeah, one of those times that we were playing and you came up with that cocktail and it landed on the menu. That was one of my, that's one of my favorite cocktails. Like that's my kind of cocktail. So sometimes when we- It screams, just to let everybody know, it screams of a Kayla cocktail. There's signs. Yeah, you could just read the ingredient list and be like, that is definitely Kayla. Like there's Kayla. I don't know what it is, but people know.

01:16:10Well, you shouldn't say it like, that's Kayla. I think it's more like, no, that's a Kayla cocktail. You should be excited. You have a signature that, at least to me, I mean, mind you, we've been working together for a long time, but like I can see your signature on a cocktail for sure, yeah. Well, John Yeager, who does the cocktail festival in Nashville, that's coming up too, which we'll be excited to take part in that. But he has told me before, he was like, you always do this one thing. And he's like, I don't know what it is, but it's always like this one thing further. And then he's like, and I know that that's your cocktail. Like, what is it? I don't know. Well, I know for my part, when I look at like the bitter and blank, I see there's, well, there's two different cognacs in there. Yeah. Or two different brandies in there. Two different brandies. Yeah, two different brandies in there. And what else? And then the bitter Bianco. Yeah. And like just seeing those three ingredients, I'm like, yep, that's definitely, definitely Kayla. There's Kayla. I love the bittersweet cocktails.

01:17:12Yeah. I do. Well, it's delicious. I sold one just the day before yesterday. I'm glad, cause it's not one of those cocktails you sell a lot of. Yeah. We have those on the dessert menu already of like the crazy high selling cocktails. The espresso martini. Yeah, and that we're at a steakhouse. Those are the things that people want. We've translated, so I mean, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but Eric Simmons is an incredible bartender that started in my knowledge. I guess my relationship started with him or friendship started in Pinewood social and not even friendship. I just experienced him as a guest. And I mean, I'd like to be friends with him, but I mean, he was just incredible. He was a great bartender. And I tried to do all I can to like meet and connect with as many bartenders as possible because it makes me better as a bartender and also helps us strengthen our community of like knowing who's doing what and who might need an opportunities or who has what access to different resources.

01:18:13So he's now based in Chicago. And I believe punch, it was either punch.com or imbibe, maybe even liquor.com. I just can't remember at the moment, but they did an article about him saying that he's rethinking the steakhouse cocktail. And I was like, dad gum it, that's what I wanted to do. I was trying to redo the steakhouse cocktail, but I was still in the season of rebuilding. This is before you were on the team. So we were rebuilding the Oak Steakhouse program and kind of breathing new life into it. It had gone through a lot of transition after COVID. And it was just kind of, you know, it wasn't on a death rattle kind of situation, but it was definitely needing some CPR. Yeah, it definitely needed some love. Yeah, and so we were doing that. I was rebuilding and really bartending as often as possible. Every shift I was bartending there because we were short staff, we were trying to rebuild. And so when you came on, I was kind of in the second phase of trying to rebuild that bar.

01:19:18And you were honestly the magic that made it doable. And if you weren't there, it would not be the same bar. You know, I always like having a little sunshine blown up my ass. I got it, I got it. You deserve it. And so yeah, he had done that Oak Steakhouse, or not Oak, he had done the Steakhouse cocktail and revamped it. And that's, I still believe heavily that that is something we're seeing in the scene in general, is that Steakhouse cocktails, they have different goals. And so how do you make Steakhouse cocktails not boring, not one note? I think this is true of like, most good cocktail menus have this kind of design. But then, of course, it's in all of your programs. Organizing your cocktail menu from bright, easy, refreshing, approachable, to more advanced as you move down that menu is hugely important. I think it's also cool that, and again, this is not just unique to Oak, this is every good cocktail place, I think.

01:20:24To having a cocktail for everybody. So everybody can be represented on there and understanding that just because a drink doesn't sell, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be on your menu. Having a Negroni on your menu and understanding that that Negroni is probably gonna be your least popular drink, but a Negroni drinker wants to be represented on that menu. And if you're a Negroni drinker and you go in and you look at your cocktail menu and there's not a Negroni on there, or there's not some sort of something that's going to scratch that itch. Yeah. That clout. Exactly. If you're missing that on your menu, then because you're like, well, no one ever bought it, so that drink was a dud. It's not a dud. It's just for a very specific drinker. Exactly. Recognizing each palate who comes in, recognizing each person that comes in, and helping them feel seen. Giving them that chance to be like, oh, there's my cocktail. And you can offset that. If you're gonna have something that doesn't sell a ton, it needs to be the one that's the off, it offsets the rest of your cocktails.

01:21:29So price-wise, if you guys are making menus and if you're working on learning how to do poor cost, that kind of thing, your easy drinkers should be the most financially easy to replicate and financially beneficial to the whole bar. They should be the top sellers. They should be easy two-touch drinks. You should be able to sell 20 to 30 in a night. And you should be batching them. And you should be batching them. I guess it depends on your program, but I think that batching cocktails for a 200-seat restaurant is an imperative. I think it's not super. So over the years, Nashville has kind of come to a little bit of an improvement lately. I would say maybe five to 10 years ago, everybody, when they were getting into craft cocktails, they'll have eight bottle-touch cocktails. And guests were waiting, sometimes up to 20 minutes for a drink.

01:22:32And you could tell that people were frustrated. That was everywhere I went in Nashville. You'd have to wait forever. And I think over the years, we've gotten better. Nashville has gotten better of seeing, how do we do these cocktails better? Unfortunately, in some ways, they've just been like, well, let's just cut ingredients. Which there's nothing wrong with a low ingredient cocktail. Like I said, we just talked about a three ingredient cocktail. I'm so into low ingredient cocktails. But if you're cutting your creativity in half because you don't know how to solve the speed problem, that means that they're maybe not looking at all of the possible solutions. And batching absolutely is a great solution. And I know that there's a lot of places in Nashville that do it. New York already had that like completely on lock. They knew what they were doing with batching. And we had a lot of New York bartenders come to Nashville over the last handful of years. And there's also some drinks that do better the longer those flavors sit together. Exactly. It's not an accident. And for a lot of people who are heavy, like loyalist mixology, they will be like, no, you have to separate them all out.

01:23:39Well, you know, I was talking to somebody in the kitchen about this very thing just a couple of days ago. And they pointed out, they were like, well, that's just your mise en place. Exactly. It's like in the kitchen, you know, yeah, you have a lot of divided items, but there are some things that just get put together so that you're not like, like they're not dicing every onion for every, you know, per dish. Yeah, you know, they're not making the sauce from scratch every time. Like they've made the sauce that day and then they keep it to use for the remainder of the ship. It's mise en place. Well, and the nerdy part, the history part that I have to tap into, we already alluded to the fact that we're nerds. So we don't have to keep talking about that, right? Or justifying it. Well, I do want to put it in perspective. I think day one of like setting me down to like teach me about cocktailing was like the history of distillation in Mesopotamia in 3000 BC. Yeah. So pretty thorough stuff. We worked our way up from there.

01:24:42But yeah, in the 1600s, we have punch and pretty much punch is the only thing really on the menu, which a punch is defined as a spirit of any kind, sugar, water, spices, and juice. And that was all punch was. There was hot punches, cold punches, but for about 200 years, that was pretty much what you see on the menu. It wasn't until 1800 that we really see cocktail, the word cocktail show up. Apparently David Wondrich has found earlier locations for the word cocktail to show up. But the one that always resonates with me is in 1806, it says, had a glass of cocktail today, this morning. Excellent for the head. And that's like the first time it shows up and it's a spirit of any kind, sugar, water, and bitters. So there's a slight difference of that, that kind of the formation of the cocktail from punch. Punch by definition, it's those five ingredients, but it also says a communal drink. So when the world of bartending switched in the prohibition time to, and pre-prohibition time to like, I have a busy life, I've got places to go, I've got to go back to work, that happy hour cocktail or the drink that you're getting where you're just drinking a quick cold shot of something delicious and then going back out into your day.

01:25:59That's where we switched away from punch because punch, you sit down, you enjoy, you're sipping with other folks. Cocktails are individualism. That's like really the American identity coming through in the cocktail form. And so punch was something that's, it's overseas. Like this is a tradition that's lasted forever. Cocktail is where we see that individualism or American individualism kind of coming through into the drink world. And so punch sits and rests together. Those flavors rest together. And we lost some of that when we switched to just cocktailing. And so that's something that I think that we miss. And yeah, maybe it's a stretch. Maybe I'm just trying to justify batching because it's easy and fast. But no, I mean, truly, I feel like it's something that we should get back to. Yeah, and it's not just easy and fast. It's like, yeah, it is easier and faster. But another way to say that is it's efficient.

01:27:00It's still skillful. Yeah, it's still skillful. It's efficient and it's better for the guests ultimately. And I mean, I still have all those products. I can still pour it to you individually for sure. But that batch program really does, especially for like a 200 seat restaurant, it has cut down on, you're right. Like a few years ago, a 20 minute cocktail was unfortunately a thing that happened all the time. All the time. And it really shouldn't be like that. You shouldn't be getting your first cocktail. You know, actually when I was a server, you know, at a craft cocktail restaurant, as a server, like I was serving people, I was literally telling people, would you like to get a beer or a wine while you wait for your cocktail? Because that's gonna be a minute. And that was at a place where we were a pre-prohibition cocktail brandy bar. And that being the mindset, it's like, well, people were willing to wait because they knew what they were getting. But if you can do the same thing and do it faster then just do it faster.

01:28:04Yeah, people pride themselves on being able to, and we got pretty damn good at it, I will say. You know, before we did batching at Grey's, and I think they took batching back away, but when we were at Grey's and we did batching, we were, we sped up a lot. But before that, our top seller was a five or six bottle touch. If you're counting the bitters, it was six, yeah. It was six bottle touches. And that was our top seller. Well, and what ended up happening is we would make four at a time. Like I'd get an order for one, I'd make four at a time, I'd set them aside and just ice them to go out. At that point, I've just batched the cocktail. I just batched the cocktail. I should have just batched it from the start. And that's the kind of nonsense that we've kind of played ourselves up on is like, no, I've got to make every drink. Well, I can make every drink a la mode. I can do that. But. A la mode? Yeah, tell me.

01:29:05I stopped. A la minute. A la minute. I can't make every cocktail with ice cream, okay? I mean, I do think that every cocktail should have ice cream. Every cocktail should come with ice cream. That's Brandon's, that's the pull quote that we're gonna have. I do think that every cocktail should have ice cream. Yeah, absolutely. That'll be your pull quote, done and done. I actually think every cocktail needs salt. That is a fair, and not only do you live up to that, but you're right. I think every cocktail does benefit from salinity. Doesn't need much, just a little bit. Yeah, if you think about it, salt in a dish, it just intensifies the other flavors. So it's the same thing happening in a cocktail. Blood pressure doesn't love it though. Yeah. It probably doesn't love the drink either. You know, everything in moderation. Yeah. So before we finish up here, I'm gonna ask you the same two questions that I've been asking every bartender so far. Number one, what can bartenders be doing better?

01:30:08And then number two is a slightly bigger question. What can the industry be doing better for you? For me specifically. For you, yeah. Good. Well, what bartenders can be doing better? I think kind of it's been the central thing of this entire conversation. I think supporting and respecting each other and supporting and respecting everybody in the industry. So not just the bartenders that you deem worthy of your respect and your appreciation. I mean, the whole crew from, you know, like dishwasher all the way up to your lead bartender, you know, you wanna take care of your lead bartender too. Take care of me too. But the whole crew, like every single person deserves respect because every single person is integral to the entire unit. So I think, you know, that's what bar teams need to be doing and need to be preaching at every turn. Yeah.

01:31:09And I guess that also answers the second question in a big way. And that I think the industry, and this would be good for me, but it would be good for everybody too. I think the industry needs to be more, oh hell, what's the word I'm looking for? Like money and power within the industry needs to be better distributed between everybody. I mean, you are talking to Oak's resident socialist, but really it does need to be more egalitarian. It does need to be more that everybody gets a piece of the pie. And I mean, that I also think will make for better restaurants when you see that people are more invested when they get a share of the spoils. We said that on Jennifer's episode too, is like when you take care of people, I was like, I promise you, if you are someone who is making money in this industry by creating restaurants and you're not working in the restaurant, you will absolutely see your money be protected and go up too when you take care of your team.

01:32:20Absolutely. So even though I agree with you, it's kind of a socialist message, it will help you, capitalists. It will make you better too, I promise. So I think honestly that's like, we talked a little bit about the binaries of the world that we live in with Jennifer and sometimes how communication breaks down, but it is mutually beneficial to just take care of your neighbor. It is. And you can get all the mentality of the kudos, of like, yeah, I took care of my neighbor so I get taken care of. Sure, you can operate that way, that's fine. But when you live in a way that you're just simply taking care of your neighbor because it's the right thing to do, I promise that your life is absolutely going to be changed by that mentality. And the way that our bar operates is community. It is, if there's a need, we take care of each other. And I mean, I'm pretty proud of us. We made it through this episode and I didn't cry too much.

01:33:23Yeah, just little tears. Little tears. Little tears. And like right at the end here, because I brought it up, I'm like, oh dang, that's coming. Like Jennifer and I talked about how there's moments when you feel like you're gonna cry and you get that hot prickly feeling behind your eyes or like you get choked up and you feel it in your throat. I love you so much, Brandon. I love you. You're my best friend. You're my best friend. I love you so much. I'm so grateful that you took time to talk with me today on this platform. Well, thank you for having me. This has been awesome and my first podcast experience. Well, you killed it. Well, thank you. Well, let's tink glasses one more time. Cheers. That was a much better clink. I'm down with that. So thank you to everybody who's been listening. I hope you had a good time. I hope you felt seen in this episode and if you're working tonight, I hope you make a bunch of money. Cheers. Cheers.